How do you deal with the real history on Joseph Smith?

[_sock puppet]

Today, I can say that I know Joseph Smith was a complex and flawed human being.

I'm sure Jeffery Dahmer was a complex and flawed human being, too. But does that give him a free pass?

+1

[_sock puppet]

What did Joseph actually accomplish?

According to why me, Joseph "moved mountains" on at least one occasion, though we don't have any corroboration from the wives.

He founded a church. He organized a church. He revolutionized christianity, He built cities and designed cities. He ran for president. He was a leader. He was a general. And he died for his beliefs. All before the age of 39. And he brought forth new scripture. And he found 11 men to testify to the truthfulness of their experience who never backed down.

And JSJr's greatest accomplishment? 165 years+ after his murder, JSJr has a blind following of sycophants, with why me at the front of the pack.

[_why me]

Are you telling me that missionaries lose the spirit if they masturbate, rendering them ineffective, but Joseph stood in the presence of God despite likely manipulative, sexual encounters with teenage girls and married women? Surely, most people understand the disconnect. So what if he was complex (as though that is a virtue). So what if he moved mountains and accomplished much. What entitled him to such behavior? How do you excuse it?

I don't think that the missionaries lose the spirit if they masturbate. No one is perfect. One must read the story of Joseph Smith and polygamy with an open mind. Many of these women had wonderful spiritual experiences before they said to the principle. Many hesitated to give a yes, but after praying about the principle the spiritual experience occurred, confirming the principle. And no women that he was sealed to, ever said a negative word about her experience with Joseph Smith. So, what am I to read into this?

[_Stormy Waters]

I don't think that the missionaries lose the spirit if they masturbate. No one is perfect. One must read the story of Joseph Smith and polygamy with an open mind. Many of these women had wonderful spiritual experiences before they said to the principle. Many hesitated to give a yes, but after praying about the principle the spiritual experience occurred, confirming the principle. And no women that he was sealed to, ever said a negative word about her experience with Joseph Smith. So, what am I to read into this?

"I felt quite sore over it, and thought it a very unkind act in father to allow William to go and enjoy the dance unrestrained with other of my companions, and fetter me down, for no girl danced better than I did, and I really felt it was too much to bear. It made the dull school more dull, and like a wild bird I longed for the freedom that was denied me; and thought to myself an abused child, and that it was pardonable if I did not murmur." -Helen Mar Kimball.

[_Yong Xi]

Are you telling me that missionaries lose the spirit if they masturbate, rendering them ineffective, but Joseph stood in the presence of God despite likely manipulative, sexual encounters with teenage girls and married women? Surely, most people understand the disconnect. So what if he was complex (as though that is a virtue). So what if he moved mountains and accomplished much. What entitled him to such behavior? How do you excuse it?

I don't think that the missionaries lose the spirit if they masturbate. No one is perfect. One must read the story of Joseph Smith and polygamy with an open mind. Many of these women had wonderful spiritual experiences before they said to the principle. Many hesitated to give a yes, but after praying about the principle the spiritual experience occurred, confirming the principle. And no women that he was sealed to, ever said a negative word about her experience with Joseph Smith. So, what am I to read into this?

You should have chosen the screen name "Mental Gymnast", but I guess that was already taken.

[_Stormy Waters]

I don't think that the missionaries lose the spirit if they masturbate. No one is perfect. One must read the story of Joseph Smith and polygamy with an open mind. Many of these women had wonderful spiritual experiences before they said to the principle. Many hesitated to give a yes, but after praying about the principle the spiritual experience occurred, confirming the principle. And no women that he was sealed to, ever said a negative word about her experience with Joseph Smith. So, what am I to read into this?

These women had a spiritual experience and defend their leader. So what am I to read into this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbGhnePa0Dk

[_Spektical]

Today, I can say that I know Joseph Smith was a complex and flawed human being.

This waffling characterization of Joseph Smith has irritated me ever since discarding my belief. It sounds too much like something a TBM says as a substitute for actual thinking.

When I think of a flawed individual, I think of someone who makes negligent, unintentional mistakes. The Joseph marching across the country in Zion's Camp who loses his temper and throws something at a dog--that's a flawed individual. The Joseph who shags Fanny in the barn--that's a sexual predator. The real question when it comes to Smith is "deliberation". It's wrong to categorically describe him as "flawed," as if that sufficiently explains every mistake he ever made. Each error should be evaluated to determine whether it was an honest mistake or whether it was a deliberate, calculated, and purposeful action.

Off the top of my head, the following blunders can be confidently described as intentional, premeditated actions by Smith:

Book of Abraham
Book of Mormon
Kirtland Anti-Banking Society
All extra-marital affairs
Greek Psalter incident
Money digging

I'm sure there are many others.

[_why me]

"I felt quite sore over it, and thought it a very unkind act in father to allow William to go and enjoy the dance unrestrained with other of my companions, and fetter me down, for no girl danced better than I did, and I really felt it was too much to bear. It made the dull school more dull, and like a wild bird I longed for the freedom that was denied me; and thought to myself an abused child, and that it was pardonable if I did not murmur." -Helen Mar Kimball.

Okay, her father did not allow her to go to a dance and she wrote about it a journal. Many young ladies have the same entry throughout the years. For example:

My dad did not allow me to go to the disco even though my friends all went. I feel angry and abused about this. How dear dad do this to me. I wish I were dead.

typical girl entry. The next day she is happier than a chipmunk with a peanut in its mouth.

[_just me]

"I felt quite sore over it, and thought it a very unkind act in father to allow William to go and enjoy the dance unrestrained with other of my companions, and fetter me down, for no girl danced better than I did, and I really felt it was too much to bear. It made the dull school more dull, and like a wild bird I longed for the freedom that was denied me; and thought to myself an abused child, and that it was pardonable if I did not murmur." -Helen Mar Kimball.

Okay, her father did not allow her to go to a dance and she wrote about it a journal. Many young ladies have the same entry throughout the years. For example:

My dad did not allow me to go to the disco even though my friends all went. I feel angry and abused about this. How dear dad do this to me. I wish I were dead.

typical girl entry. The next day she is happier than a chipmunk with a peanut in its mouth.

Hmmm. One could say the same thing about the men and women who "never said anything bad" about Joseph. Perhaps they were just having a good day and you missed the negative diary entry.

Duh!

by the way, you're dismissive attitude towards the feelings of a young woman and how you paint young women is no surprise. I've long known you to be sexist and it is great that you continue to show people.

[_Bob Loblaw]

Hmmm. One could say the same thing about the men and women who "never said anything bad" about Joseph. Perhaps they were just having a good day and you missed the negative diary entry.

Duh!

by the way, you're dismissive attitude towards the feelings of a young woman and how you paint young women is no surprise. I've long known you to be sexist and it is great that you continue to show people.

Yep. why me sees moral equivalence in a 14-year-old girl being pressured (heavily) into accepting a middle-aged man as her husband and then being isolated and prohibited from being a normal young woman and a petulant teenager being told she can't go to the dance tonight. Sexist? Yes, but the lack of perspective and morality is far worse, in my opinion.