When will apologists finally GET IT?

[Guest]

What you anti-mormons can't understand is even your OWN thinking and words.
Just read your words again.....

You were.....

1. Already a disgruntled Mormon, meaning your ideology was already anti-mormon, so of course anything LDS do would be offensive to you.

2. Your ideology clearly ALREADY was in apostate thinking and identified as such. There is no way Mormon apologists could win the argument for you.

Thus, you falsely accuse apologists as being the cause of your leaving the church when in fact it is YOUR OWN ideology, thoughts, and fruits that have created your fall.

See, liberal thinking always has a "boogyman" to blame for their personal problems, whether it's religion, corporations, the rich, etc.

Is it true Mormons fear being an apostate? Because your "thus" conclusion says that to me. :)

Actually, I left Mormonism long before the internet existed. I never heard of a "Mormon apologist". FARMS was called "fringie" then, by the Mormons who I knew.

But indeed, I did think my way out of Mormonism. I wouldn't call it a fall. It was quite liberating.

[_ldsfaqs]

Generally yes. The more educated one is the more likely they will be able to see the church is not true after being confronted with the evidence. That does not mean smart people don't believe dumb things even with plenty of evidence. A young earth and Global flood are good examples of this as well as the Church's truth claims.

Your comment works when it concerns all "other" religions, but not the LDS Church.
Studies have already been done to show that the more educated Mormons are, the MORE faithful they are. In contrast to other religions in which education causes people to leave. Frankly, it's because the Church IS literally true, and not another man-made religion.

[_madeleine]

Your comment works when it concerns all "other" religions, but not the LDS Church.
Studies have already been done to show that the more educated Mormons are, the MORE faithful they are. In contrast to other religions in which education causes people to leave. Frankly, it's because the Church IS literally true, and not another man-made religion.

Wait, I though Mormons viewed educated clergy as a bad thing? More a sign of "not true", than "true".

[_ldsfaqs]

Is it true Mormons fear being an apostate? Because your "thus" conclusion says that to me. :)

1. I've already been an "apostate", so no, no fear.

2. My "thus" comment was in reference to the actual "cause" of ones apostasy.
Whatever boogyman people want to blame in life for their problems, the fact and issue most of the time is within themselves. He already had apostate ideology, thus of course LDS fruits would not be satisfying to him.

Actually, I left Mormonism long before the internet existed. I never heard of a "Mormon apologist". FARMS was called "fringie" then, by the Mormons who I knew.

I too joined and left the Church before the internet. It was back when we had to read books to find out things. I'm a born/baptized Catholic also. But, unlike some people, I have no bigoted need to remove my name from Catholic records.

Please, probably average joe less intellectually inclined Mormons called FARMS "fringe". Every intellectual Mormon I knew never considered FARMS "fringe". Me thinks you're not as learned as you think you are.

But indeed, I did think my way out of Mormonism. I wouldn't call it a fall. It was quite liberating.

I'm glad your happy..... Doesn't make your thinking "true".

[_ldsfaqs]

Your comment works when it concerns all "other" religions, but not the LDS Church.
Studies have already been done to show that the more educated Mormons are, the MORE faithful they are. In contrast to other religions in which education causes people to leave. Frankly, it's because the Church IS literally true, and not another man-made religion.

Wait, I though Mormons viewed educated clergy as a bad thing? More a sign of "not true", than "true".

1. Who said anything about "educated clergy".....? I certainly didn't.

2. Being "formally educated" clergy is far different from being educated clergy, and especially as I was talking about "educated Mormons". I never said anything about "clergy".

Christ and the apostles and most Prophets of the Bible were not formally "educated clergy"..... But they knew the Gospel, and so do most of our leaders as well as a great many of our members.

[_madeleine]

Is it true Mormons fear being an apostate? Because your "thus" conclusion says that to me. :)

1. I've already been an "apostate", so no, no fear.

2. My "thus" comment was in reference to the actual "cause" of ones apostasy.
Whatever boogyman people want to blame in life for their problems, the fact and issue most of the time is within themselves. He already had apostate ideology, thus of course LDS fruits would not be satisfying to him.

Actually, I left Mormonism long before the internet existed. I never heard of a "Mormon apologist". FARMS was called "fringie" then, by the Mormons who I knew.

I too joined and left the Church before the internet. It was back when we had to read books to find out things. I'm a born/baptized Catholic also. But, unlike some people, I have no bigoted need to remove my name from Catholic records.

Please, probably average joe less intellectually inclined Mormons called FARMS "fringe". Every intellectual Mormon I knew never considered FARMS "fringe". Me thinks you're not as learned as you think you are.

But indeed, I did think my way out of Mormonism. I wouldn't call it a fall. It was quite liberating.

I'm glad your happy..... Doesn't make your thinking "true".

:) I think you would be surprised at who those actual Mormons were. Says LOADS about you that you would presume they were uneducated. Kind of humorous really, but I seem to be in a good mood tonight!

I have yet to figure out why any right-thinking Catholic would leave the Eucharist. But...it happens. So sorry to break it to you, but you're the apostate!

[_madeleine]

Wait, I though Mormons viewed educated clergy as a bad thing? More a sign of "not true", than "true".

1. Who said anything about "educated clergy".....? I certainly didn't.

2. Being "formally educated" clergy is far different from being educated clergy, and especially as I was talking about "educated Mormons". I never said anything about "clergy".

Christ and the apostles and most Prophets of the Bible were not formally "educated clergy"..... But they knew the Gospel, and so do most of our leaders as well as a great many of our members.

I thought you were implying that educated faithful is an indicator of truthiness. What does it matter, formal education or educated, and what is the difference?

If I say, the Pope is a Dr. as well as the Pope, and you say, one of your Apostles is a Dr.....well, what's your point? You have no uneducated leaders, those without bachelors degrees at least, "at the top", or near to the top.

I think, given enough time, and if your church survives, you'll find that your clergy will need to become educated. At least those who are teaching others. You see it already, in your high school seminaries.

We come from all walks of life.

Jesus was the Master, not the student.

St. Paul was a highly educated Jew and Roman.

St. Peter was most likely illiterate.

[_degaston]

…

Damnit, cwald. I had you down as one of my un-baptisms, notched in my belt and all. Trying to negate the damage to humanity that I did on a Mormon mission lo those many years ago.

Sorry to disappoint...but I give all the credit to Wade England, Sekek1, and Pahoran.

Sock Puppet, it looks like you are a failure as an exmo mishie. Maybe you should sacrifice a p-day and try harder so you can see more blessings ;) When the Exmo Mission Prez picks his next AP the honor should go to Wade or Pahoran instead. Those 2 are in my opinion amongst the most successful exmo mishies that Mormonism has ever had. If you want to be a successful exmo missionary there is a secret formula: (1) Be an apologist; (2) Try to explain that there is any validity to 21st century science. Poof!! Testimonies get destroyed.

Cwald, who is this spiritual Christlike individual Sekek1?

Okay I'm offering some free advice to FAIR and all the rest of the apologists. About the best way to stop the bleeding is to successfully demonstrate how 21st century science is a bunch of quackery. Take this advice, run with it and you may save millions of living souls (and billions who are dead via temple work) and you can undo the damage that Scott Gordon, Wade, Pahoran and others have done to the LDS church. I'm certainly not expert on how to prove the Scientific Method is quackery. My first inclination would be to come up with a hypothesis and .....

[_Nomomo]

Studies have already been done to show that the more educated Mormons are, the MORE faithful they are. .

I'm calling BS. You just made that up. CFR on these "studies".

[_cwald]

Yep. I was a fence sitter, disgruntled Mormon who went to apologists and MAD for help and answers. It was the final straw. And how ironic, they still believe it was all you apostates here at MD that caused my shelf to completely crash.

What you anti-mormons can't understand is even your OWN thinking and words.
Just read your words again.....

You were.....

1. Already a disgruntled Mormon, meaning your ideology was already anti-mormon, so of course anything LDS do would be offensive to you.

2. Your ideology clearly ALREADY was in apostate thinking and identified as such. There is no way Mormon apologists could win the argument for you.

Thus, you falsely accuse apologists as being the cause of your leaving the church when in fact it is YOUR OWN ideology, thoughts, and fruits that have created your fall.

See, liberal thinking always has a "boogyman" to blame for their personal problems, whether it's religion, corporations, the rich, etc.

Hmmm? I can't decide if you are criticizing me, or unwittingly complimenting me?

But whatever, I still think my comment is accurate. Yep, I was disgruntle and bitter and angry at the betrayal I felt...and at having been lied to. I spent years at stayLDS and NOM trying to find a path to remain in the church. It wasn't until I made the mistake of participating at MAD and LDS.net and really realized just what a kind of cult I was involved with, and what kind of mental gymnastics I would have to perform my whole life, that the shelf finally completely crashed and I gave up my efforts to find a middle way within the church.

I don't think I falsely accused apologists as the cause of me leaving. I was already in faith crisis...from using logic and reason and being open to questioning the church authority. But they , the apologists surely damaged my faith in the church, the little that I had left...much much more than folks here, and especially much more than the folks at NOM and StayLDS. The NOM's and StayLDS folks are much better apologists than the "apologists" ever dreamed of being. My point...my opinion...apologists do more harm than good when it comes to those who are having a faith crisis.

In the end, I will concede that the church itself is responsible, it's lies and teachings and fruits, for me leaving the church.