Missionary Age Change - Practical Consequences For Me

[_Falcon A]

At the risk of changing the subject...

A 17-year old in the Temple Endowment sessions? You know, the l'il Elder that wants to leave on his 18th birthday.
Yikes, and thank GOrDon it's not 1989. I was nearly 20 and it freaked me out.

...and what parent isn't going to think that their child is ready?

bc and 80-90 percent will say their kid is 'spiritually prepared', 'needs to go', etc.

I like how the Church emphasizes that a mission is a choice. Back in the day one felt called by God. I like how they're getting away from all that.

I guess it's like how God told Joseph to "join none of them," then he went ahead and tried to be a Methodist. Nowadays a good LDS can tell God, 'Meh. I may or may not go on a mission, I haven't decided.'

My choice would be that they wait for that call from God.

[_DrW]

Aristotle,

My wife and I faced this exact same issue about 15 years ago. The deal we made was that I would not tell the kids the problems with the Church and that we would let the boys make up their own minds about missions when the time came.

As it turned out all three decided to go, and a non-believing father paid for all three with a smile.

All my children are now grown, married, and TBM. Some know (and will acknowledge in private) the truth about the LDS Church, but have decided to continue on in activity for now, because that is what the rest of the family is doing.

Things in the extended family are great now, but I am concerned about a future when the system becomes "stressed" - when the 10% that is going for tithing could make the difference in being able to make a mortgage payment or not, or more importantly, the difference in sending the grandkids to a good university or not. Hard times come in every life and in every marriage.

Morally, I should have not agreed as I did. I should have and told the kids the truth when they were 15 or 16. There was such an age spread, however, that this may well not have worked out very well. Kids talk.

Practically, things have worked out fine (so far). I claim it is in spite of the LDS Church and certainly not because of it.

What I have come to believe is that the most important things parents can give their children are unconditional love, trust, a safe environment from which they can go out and explore, and a good example of how one lives well.

The LDS Church certainly does not encourage the exploration part. One also has to be good at shelf building.

[_DrW]

Are you talking about, "The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus"? Do you mean to say that it's a lie because the Book of Abraham was actually published by the LDS Church as a book, not written by Abraham's own hand on papyrus? Or in my own case that it was published in electronic form on the Internet? As far as we know Abraham never published anything on the Internet.

Drifting, were you planning on responding to this?

KevinSim,

Certainly you are not going to claim, based on the physical evidence, that the Book of Abraham is anything other than a fraud and a scam.

If you are, then you are simply requested to explain how the papyri that came into the possession of Joseph Smith could have possibly been used to write the Book of Abraham, since these papyri are known to be nothing more than funerary texts that were created millennia after the death of Abraham (if indeed he ever lived at all).

[_Drifting]

Yes.
Please see the age of the papyrus upon which Facsimilie 3 resides and compare it with what is declared at the commencement of the Book of Abraham (which includes facsimilie 3).

Are you talking about, "The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus"? Do you mean to say that it's a lie because the Book of Abraham was actually published by the LDS Church as a book, not written by Abraham's own hand on papyrus? Or in my own case that it was published in electronic form on the Internet? As far as we know Abraham never published anything on the Internet.

Drifting, were you planning on responding to this?

Good God it never crossed my mind that you were being serious, please accept my apologies. I'll take this slowly.

1. Joseph stated that what we know as the Book of Abraham was written by Abraham himself on the papyrus from which Joseph translated it.
2. That same papyrus contained the facsimiles also published in the Book of Abraham.
3. The Church has, in its possession the original papyrus (you knew that, right?), including the original facsimile number 3.
4. Following scientific dating (I don't mean a Biologist and a Physicist going to the movies) we now know the age of the papyrus.
5. ....

Well, I hate to spoil the surprise, can you guess the rest?

[_KevinSim]

Good God it never crossed my mind that you were being serious, please accept my apologies. I'll take this slowly.

1. Joseph stated that what we know as the Book of Abraham was written by Abraham himself on the papyrus from which Joseph translated it.
2. That same papyrus contained the facsimiles also published in the Book of Abraham.
3. The Church has, in its possession the original papyrus (you knew that, right?), including the original facsimile number 3.
4. Following scientific dating (I don't mean a Biologist and a Physicist going to the movies) we now know the age of the papyrus.
5. ....

Well, I hate to spoil the surprise, can you guess the rest?

When did Joseph state "that what we know as the Book of Abraham was written by Abraham himself on the papyrus from which" he translated it?

[_Harold Lee]

When did Joseph state "that what we know as the Book of Abraham was written by Abraham himself on the papyrus from which" he translated it?

Ok, we all know how this works lol.

Maybe we can cut to the chase and if you disagree, tell us what you actually think the Book of Abraham is? If you don't know what it is or where it came from, how can you honestly rule out fraud?

The church seemed intent a while ago that it was actually written by Abraham himself. Now it's a mystery and no one knows. Footnotes and description seem to be pretty clear Abraham supposedly wrote it himself, as well as the opening writings that say "I, Abraham"

https://www.LDS.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/1?lang=eng

[_Darth J]

When did Joseph state "that what we know as the Book of Abraham was written by Abraham himself on the papyrus from which" he translated it?

Welcome to tonight's episode of

Feigning Ignorance!



Our special guest tonight is KevinSim, who is pretending not to know basic facts about the Book of Abraham that are common knowledge to every member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! Let's look at what the Church claims about the Book of Abraham and see if KevinSim is genuinely ignorant of this issue, or if it is much, much more likely that he is

Feigning Ignorance!

Introduction to the Book of Abraham

A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus. (See History of the Church, 2:235–36, 348–51.)

History of the Church, 2:235–36:

On the 3rd of July, Michael H. Chandler came to Kirtland to exhibit some Egyptian mummies. There were four human figures, together with some two or more rolls of papyrus covered with hieroglyphic figures and devices. As Mr. Chandler had been told I could translate them, he brought me some of the characters, and I gave him the interpretation . . .
Soon after this, some of the Saints at Kirtland purchased the mummies and papyrus, a description of which will appear hereafter, and with W. W. Phelps and Oliver Cowdery as scribes, I commenced the translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphics, and much to our joy found that one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt, etc . . .

Church History in the Fulness of Times Institute Manual, Chapter 13

Greatly interested in their content, the Saints purchased the mummies and scrolls for twenty-four hundred dollars. Joseph immediately began working with the scrolls and found that they contained the writings of Abraham and the writings of Joseph who was sold into Egypt. “Truly we can say, the Lord is beginning to reveal the abundance of peace and truth.”

Abraham 1:14

And it came to pass that the priests laid violence upon me, that they might slay me also, as they did those virgins upon this altar; and that you may have a knowledge of this altar, I will refer you to the representation at the commencement of this record.



Diary of Wilford Woodruff, February 19, 1842

"Joseph the Seer has presented us some of the Book of Abraham which was written by his own hand but hid from the knowledge of man for the last four thousand years but has now come to light through the mercy of God."

“Chapter 12: Rich Treasures in the Scriptures,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff, 115

For much of Wilford Woodruff’s life, the Pearl of Great Price was not one of the standard works of the Church. However, its teachings were widely read by the Saints, with excerpts first published in some of the Church’s periodicals. On October 10, 1880, the Pearl of Great Price became a standard work of the Church by action of the First Presidency and by a sustaining vote in general conference.

In the following excerpts from his journal, Elder Woodruff expresses his testimony concerning the book of Abraham, which the Prophet Joseph Smith translated by the power of God and which was later included in the Pearl of Great Price.

The Lord is blessing Joseph with power to reveal the mysteries of the kingdom of God, to translate … ancient records and hieroglyphics as old as Abraham or Adam, which causes our hearts to burn within us while we behold their glorious truths opened unto us. Joseph the Seer has presented us some of the book of Abraham, which was written by his [Abraham’s] own hand but hid from the knowledge of man for the last four thousand years but has now come to light through the mercy of God.

And let's see what our judges say......

Yes, our judges say that it is so utterly implausible that an active, adult member of the LDS Church would not know that the Church and its leaders have historically claimed that the Chandler papyri contained writings from the hand of Abraham, the only reasonable conclusion is that tonight's guest, KevinSim, is

Feigning Ignorance!

[_Sethbag]

Well, either he's feigning ignorance, or we're about to be treated to a bold attempt to redefine some subset of the words "the words of Abraham written by his own hand upon papyrus" to mean other than what normal English-speaking human beings understand the words to mean.

[_Darth J]

Well, either he's feigning ignorance, or we're about to be treated to a bold attempt to redefine some subset of the words "the words of Abraham written by his own hand upon papyrus" to mean other than what normal English-speaking human beings understand the words to mean.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that very thing today.

[_Cicero]

But Darth, none of those quotes are directly attributable to Joseph Smith. Don't you know that when the History of the Church says something we don't like these days that we just ignore it and pretend that Joseph had nothing to do with it?

And all of those other guys you quoted were just misguided fools and/or prophets speaking as men.