Horses in America

[Guest]

KevinSim,

As you can see, most of the people here are repeating the arguments I've already identified. And as I said, I don't find them very compelling.

We are talking about relatively narrow locality in which the means of transporation is BY FOOT in the Book of Mormon. These people were within a very short distance of each other and the Book of Mormon does not indicate any large use of horses outside very specific uses. It seems that very select and elite individuals used them to pull a chariot for example. That is probably the extent of the technical means they possessed. The response to that is well, they would have generally been used in war because of their large advantages. Given the terrain, chariots may of been of little use. And to fight from horseback using other weapons requires a horse culture (which isn't indicated in the Book of Mormon) and certain technology that they did not possess. For example, to fight from horseback using a bow requires a recurved bow.

The only other new argument is that native varieties of horses went extinct so that means there were no horses. That is a rather silly argument. Horses could have been brought here after that point (and it would also explain the highly localized nature of their appearance too).

Tobin,

What is it about that you don't understand about the scientific fact that pre-Columbian humans in the New World saw horses as food and drove them extinct some 11,000 to 13,000 years ago?

Did you not read the fact that the first response of Amerindians when they came upon stray horses that were offspring of the horses brought over by the Spaniards was to eat those horses?

Do you not understand that the Native American Indians had to be taught by example to domesticate and ride horses rather than to kill them for food?

What is it about the statement, "No horses in the New World between 8,000 BC years ago and 1526 or so AD" that you don't understand?

Before you come up with anymore off the wall, "world according to Tobin / just so" stories, why don't you read what I wrote above (just for you), and then show some objective evidence to refute it? Show some evidence to back your claims, for once.

Continuing to make silly speculations that can be shown to be wrong just continues to damage whatever shred of credibility you might have left on this issue.

[_Cicero]

While you're at it, feel free to explain why a people from the Old World would have abandoned the use of the wheel.

That curse on the Lamanites must really have been a doozy. Not only were they cursed with a "skin of blackness" (horror of horrors), they also lost all common sense, and managed to beat it out of the white and delightsome Nephites too!

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

[_Nightlion]

Given the terrain, chariots may of been of little use.

CFR on the terrain.
Please describe the terrain.

Andes Mountains

The Book of Mormon does say:

Enos 1: 21
21 And it came to pass that the people of Nephi did till the land, and raise all manner of grain, and of fruit, and flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind, and goats, and wild goats, and also many horses.

And that there were more than a few with both horses and chariots before the Great Destruction.

#
3 Ne. 3: 22
22 And it came to pass in the *seventeenth year, in the latter end of the year, the proclamation of Lachoneus had gone forth throughout all the face of the land, and they had taken their horses, and their chariots, and their cattle, and all their flocks, and their herds, and their grain, and all their substance, and did march forth by thousands and by tens of thousands, until they had all gone forth to the place which had been appointed that they should gather themselves together, to defend themselves against their enemies.

But it does say that they marched forth instead of rode forth. Limiting again the possibility a great many horses. But the most obvious reason to think that they had few is that horses are never mentioned in any war fought. Never. And no horses are mentioned after the great destruction.

[_Nightlion]

While you're at it, feel free to explain why a people from the Old World would have abandoned the use of the wheel.

Once Satan had complete control he put it into the hearts of the people to so alienate their new culture from the former Nephite and Lamanite cultures to frustrate God's second witness of Jesus Christ in the last days. Moroni said that the Lamanites were set upon the destruction of all records. (Mormon 6:6)


Like he seeded writings among the people of Ancient Ur to suggest that they descended from aliens so that when Satan comes to take over the world in our day his Ancient Alien Theorist (high priests) will have convinced the world Satan is their true god. Back then the Babylonians wanted to build a tower high enough to for Nimrod to shoot his arrows and kill all the hosts of heaven. Such was the great power Satan had over them. Seeding his lies in believable artifacts to be DISCOVERED today is the sort of mysterious windings we can expect him having seen it done on other worlds. As today's top Zion scientist theorizes even now.

[_Tobin]

While you're at it, feel free to explain why a people from the Old World would have abandoned the use of the wheel.

Once Satan had complete control he put it into the hearts of the people to so alienate their new culture from the former Nephite and Lamanite cultures to frustrate God's second witness of Jesus Christ in the last days. Moroni said that the Lamanites were set upon the destruction of all records. (Mormon 6:6)


Like he seeded writings among the people of Ancient Ur to suggest that they descended from aliens so that when Satan comes to take over the world in our day his Ancient Alien Theorist (high priests) will have convinced the world Satan is their true god. Back then the Babylonians wanted to build a tower high enough to for Nimrod to shoot his arrows and kill all the hosts of heaven. Such was the great power Satan had over them. Seeding his lies in believable artifacts to be DISCOVERED today is the sort of mysterious windings we can expect him having seen it done on other worlds. As today's top Zion scientist theorizes even now.

Just ignore him Nightlion. Darth J is a troll. The wheel was clearly known to the ancient Mayan. For example, here are a number of pictures of WHEELED Mayan toys:
https://www.google.com/search?q=wheeled+mayan+toys&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=b2gpUfTiBsXt2wWilIH4Aw&ved=0CFcQsAQ&biw=1755&bih=936
They obviously knew about both the wheel and axles!!!

[_Quasimodo]

But it does say that they marched forth instead of rode forth. Limiting again the possibility a great many horses. But the most obvious reason to think that they had few is that horses are never mentioned in any war fought. Never. And no horses are mentioned after the great destruction.

I think the correct word for a calvary moving in a column or formation is march. If the Nephites left their horses behind, they were crusin for a brusin.

[_DrW]

Just ignore him Nightlion. Darth J is a troll. The wheel was clearly known to the ancient Mayan. For example, here are a number of pictures of WHEELED Mayan toys:
https://www.google.com/search?q=wheeled+mayan+toys&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=b2gpUfTiBsXt2wWilIH4Aw&ved=0CFcQsAQ&biw=1755&bih=936
They obviously knew about both the wheel and axles!!!

Tobin,

There you go again. There is no more evidence that the pre-Columbian inhabitants of the New World were able to put their toy wheel and axle to practical use than there is that the ancient Romans were able to use their aeolipile (pictured below) to build steam locomotives.



As any engineer will tell you, it can be a long, long way between a small scale curiosity and a practical, reliable full scale device.

[_SteelHead]

They had the wheel but lacked draft animals. Hence it was little utilized.

[_Equality]

While Tobin is asking his trickster God where the "real" Cumorah is, maybe he can also get a revelation on where we might find some cumom and curelom fossils. If horses were not so plentiful (despite the Book of Mormon saying there were "many horses") we know that there were lots of cumoms and cureloms running around. So where is the evidence for these creatures?