Nomomo wrote:He should resign. That Mormonstories would loose some active Mormon followers is not a valid nor honest reason to remain a member of the Church.
The bigger problem is the betrayal of his loyal followers who attended MS chapters and conferences. Both of which he seemed to have abandoned. It wasn't easy for these people. If he resigns from the church he will need to address these people because of his flipflopping.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Cicero wrote:I'll add my voice to the positive comments.
Same here. Over the years I think I've listened to around 90% of his podcasts. Met him once at a FAIR conference. He was there with his mother. Nice guy. Along with John Larsen's podcasts I think that the world of Mormonism is a better place by having others speak to their own experiences and understandings in regards to reading/studying church history and managing their "shelf" for a while and then ultimately failing in their efforts to manage living within the LDS Church as a questioning member.
I think it is important to have those from across the spectrum speak their minds. Dehlin had a varied bunch of folks on his podcast who represented those that had ultimately failed to find their way in the church and those such as Bushman, Compton and others, who were able to weather the storm and find peace within the faith.
Dehlin's voice and those of his guests have been good companions while out on my runs over the last number of years.
mentalgymnast wrote:I think it is important to have those from across the spectrum speak their minds. Dehlin had a varied bunch of folks on his podcast who represented those that had ultimately failed to find their way in the church and those, such as Bushman, who were able to weather the storm and find peace within the faith.
Interesting how you say Bushman "weathered the storm". If this is true, it makes him far different from the apologists, who have never had any serious doubts. I mean, why should they let anti-Mormon lies, obvious ones at that, trouble them for even a moment?
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.
LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
Aristotle Smith wrote:How many times has he decided to leave the church now? 3? 5? 27?
And every time he comes back.
Seriously John, fish or cut bait.
It reminds me of what Emerson said:
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.
I suppose no man can violate his nature. All the sallies of his will are rounded in by the law of his being, as the inequalities of Andes and Himmaleh are insignificant in the curve of the sphere. Nor does it matter how you gauge and try him. A character is like an acrostic or Alexandrian stanza; — read it forward, backward, or across, it still spells the same thing. In this pleasing, contrite wood-life which God allows me, let me record day by day my honest thought without prospect or retrospect, and, I cannot doubt, it will be found symmetrical, though I mean it not, and see it not. My book should smell of pines and resound with the hum of insects. The swallow over my window should interweave that thread or straw he carries in his bill into my web also. We pass for what we are. Character teaches above our wills. Men imagine that they communicate their virtue or vice only by overt actions, and do not see that virtue or vice emit a breath every moment.
There will be an agreement in whatever variety of actions, so they be each honest and natural in their hour. For of one will, the actions will be harmonious, however unlike they seem. These varieties are lost sight of at a little distance, at a little height of thought. One tendency unites them all. The voyage of the best ship is a zigzag line of a hundred tacks.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.
mentalgymnast wrote:I think it is important to have those from across the spectrum speak their minds. Dehlin had a varied bunch of folks on his podcast who represented those that had ultimately failed to find their way in the church and those, such as Bushman, who were able to weather the storm and find peace within the faith.
Interesting how you say Bushman "weathered the storm".
If you listened to the podcast with Richard Bushman you probably remember Bushman describing his experiences while back east going to school in which he dealt with a storm of issues in regards to religious belief and Mormonism in particular. As it turned out, he weathered the storm and gave us his seminal work on Joseph Smith. Compton went through a similar process.
These two men are "model" apologists, if you want to call them that, for the way in which they have approached their work. And kudos to Dehin for interviewing them.
Craig Paxton wrote:Throughout history there have been cultural agitators who have dared to speak “truth to power”, who stand unafraid, who dare to stand naked, without the filter of anonymity, before that power and expose the raw truth to the world. Luther, Gandhi, King and Chaves come to mind. While the Mormon world is much smaller and the hoped change of little importance in the grand scale of human history it is important to those of us affected.
John’s agitation of the Mormon hierarchy paradigm, his exposure of institutionally directed whitewashing of church history , his spotlighting the churches lack of accountability and transparency, his fearless open questioning of authority completely blindsided Mormonism’s so called prophets, seers and revelators. He caught them completely unprepared in a new world were some random guy from Logan can challenge that authority by starting a podcast that has the audacity to actually ask questions and expect answers.
John became the voice for those within Mormonism’s spire of influence who had no voice; the disaffected, the LDS- LGBQT’s, its feminists and those struggling within mix-religion marriages. He actually gave a damn when the so called Church of Jesus Christ couldn’t care less. Not only was he their voice, he became their therapist, someone who actually “got it” and who understood the struggle within the culture. He was the voice that made us feel that we weren’t crazy after all for questioning the church.
Did he do it perfectly? No. Has he accomplished every change he’s hoped? Of course not…but he has made a difference…how many of us or those who are so quick to criticize him can say that we’ve made a difference on so great a scale within the small closed Mormon society. John has been that voice prodding Mormonism to carve out a small part of their tent for us...to allow for cultural Mormonism to exist side by side with faithful believing Mormons.
I for one will be forever thankful that I found Mormon Stories and John Dehlin that one day some 12 years ago when I was struggling to make sense of the fracture world of Mormonism. John was real, he was unafraid to challenge, to ask the difficult questions and demand truth from power.
Does anyone really think that if not for people like John the church would be making the subtle changes that it is making today? Would woman really be offering prayers in General Conference? Would the church have shifted its stance of homosexuality acknowledging nature over nurture? Would GA’s really be out conducting recue meeting in far flung corners of Mormonism if not for people like John?
John has been the annoying mosquito pestering church authorities, demanding accountability from an institution that demands unquestioning devotion and obedience of it's male hierarchy.
Thank you John…for all you have done for our community I personally wish you peace in where ever your life path takes you.
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby
Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson
Cicero wrote:I'll add my voice to the positive comments.
Same here. Over the years I think I've listened to around 90% of his podcasts. Met him once at a FAIR conference. He was there with his mother. Nice guy. Along with John Larsen's podcasts I think that the world of Mormonism is a better place by having others speak to their own experiences and understandings in regards to reading/studying church history and managing their "shelf" for a while and then ultimately failing in their efforts to manage living within the LDS Church as a questioning member.
I think it is important to have those from across the spectrum speak their minds. Dehlin had a varied bunch of folks on his podcast who represented those that had ultimately failed to find their way in the church and those such as Bushman, Compton and others, who were able to weather the storm and find peace within the faith.
Dehlin's voice and those of his guests have been good companions while out on my runs over the last number of years.
I also wish him well.
Regards, MG
Your references to those who left the church as "failures" shows that you largely missed the point of Dehlin's podcasts. Maybe you should go back for a re-listen.
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain "The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
MG: Same here. Over the years I think I've listened to around 90% of his podcasts. Met him once at a FAIR conference. He was there with his mother. Nice guy. Along with John Larsen's podcasts I think that the world of Mormonism is a better place by having others speak to their own experiences and understandings in regards to reading/studying church history and managing their "shelf" for a while and then ultimately failing in their efforts to manage living within the LDS Church as a questioning member.
I think it is important to have those from across the spectrum speak their minds. Dehlin had a varied bunch of folks on his podcast who represented those that had ultimately failed to find their way in the church and those such as Bushman, Compton and others, who were able to weather the storm and find peace within the faith.
Dehlin's voice and those of his guests have been good companions while out on my runs over the last number of years.
I also wish him well.
Equality: Your references to those who left the church as "failures" shows that you largely missed the point of Dehlin's podcasts. Maybe you should go back for a re-listen.
Dictionary- Failure: 1. lack of success 2. condition or fact of not achieving the desired end or ends.
I used the word fail and failing within the context of dictionary definitions. John Dehlin and other folks that have posted their stories online have mentioned that in their own journey of faith they went into their studies/investigations of LDS history with the desired end of finding the truth and/or defending the church. They were unsuccessful in doing so. They did not meet their desired ends.
If john does resign, maybe Greg can publish his piece with an update.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
why me wrote:If john does resign, maybe Greg can publish his piece with an update.
He could, but it would still be a piece of crap.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
