Elder Holland shares 'the missionary speech of all time'

[_deacon blues]

To paraphrase Joseph Smith, who said something like It is not intended for people to know all the particulars of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.

It is not intended for listeners to know all the particulars of faith-promoting stories and/or rumors.

[_I have a question]

How do we know about this story?

Is it because A, Holland kept track of this man....

Elder Holland then went on to tell us that he's kept track of this man. He's now returned to Southern Idaho, tattoos and all, married, and soon to be sealed in the temple.

http://www.texashoustonsouthmission.com ... en-4-25-16

...or B, because he was on the Stake Presidency with Kim B. Clark?

The Hell's Angel ended up being in the Stake Presidency (local church leadership) with Kim B. Clark, which is where he learned the story from.

http://hermanaalisonknight.blogspot.co. ... to-go.html

Except Kim B. Clark hasn't served on a Stake Presidency...

Clark has served in various assignments in the LDS Church, including bishop, scoutmaster, elders quorum president, Sunday School teacher, and counselor in a stake mission presidency. From 2007 to 2014, Clark served as an area seventy in the church's Idaho Area. On April 4, 2015, Clark was sustained as a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy.[8] On August 1, 2015, he succeeded Paul V. Johnson as the Commissioner of Church Education.[2]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_B._ ... and_family

So let's assume the tale is a bit conflated and this guy was on a Stake Presidency in Idaho during the period Clark was a seventy there. Shouldn't be too difficult to track down a tattooed ex-Hells Angel Stake Presidency member in Idaho between 2007 - 2014. I'd imagine his story would have been well circulated locally by the time the Area Authority heard about it.

Why didn't Holland mention that the chap was on the Stake Presidency, I mean, if he'd kept track of him....

Now we know the area and the time period, verification of the story shouldn't be too difficult. I mean, given the miraculous nature of it, and his willingness to share it, I'm sure the man himself will have retold it during a testimony meeting or Stake Conference....

[_Lemmie]

How do we know about this story?

Is it because A, Holland kept track of this man....

Elder Holland then went on to tell us that he's kept track of this man. He's now returned to Southern Idaho, tattoos and all, married, and soon to be sealed in the temple.

http://www.texashoustonsouthmission.com ... en-4-25-16

...or B, because he was on the Stake Presidency with Kim B. Clark?

The Hell's Angel ended up being in the Stake Presidency (local church leadership) with Kim B. Clark, which is where he learned the story from.

http://hermanaalisonknight.blogspot.co. ... to-go.html

Except Kim B. Clark hasn't served on a Stake Presidency...

Clark has served in various assignments in the LDS Church, including bishop, scoutmaster, elders quorum president, Sunday School teacher, and counselor in a stake mission presidency. From 2007 to 2014, Clark served as an area seventy in the church's Idaho Area. On April 4, 2015, Clark was sustained as a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy.[8] On August 1, 2015, he succeeded Paul V. Johnson as the Commissioner of Church Education.[2]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_B._ ... and_family

So let's assume the tale is a bit conflated and this guy was on a Stake Presidency in Idaho during the period Clark was a seventy there. Shouldn't be too difficult to track down a tattooed ex-Hells Angel Stake Presidency member in Idaho between 2007 - 2014. I'd imagine his story would have been well circulated locally by the time the Area Authority heard about it.

Why didn't Holland mention that the chap was on the Stake Presidency, I mean, if he'd kept track of him....

Now we know the area and the time period, verification of the story shouldn't be too difficult. I mean, given the miraculous nature of it, and his willingness to share it, I'm sure the man himself will have retold it during a testimony meeting or Stake Conference....

And here's a C variation:

Elder Clark knows this is a true story, because he told that talk in a stake in Idaho, and someone came up to him, and told him that the Biker guy was just sealed to his wife in the temple. Dang.
https://stareshinagee.wordpress.com/201 ... s-at-hand/

[_I have a question]

And here's a C variation:

Elder Clark knows this is a true story, because he told that talk in a stake in Idaho, and someone came up to him, and told him that the Biker guy was just sealed to his wife in the temple. Dang.
https://stareshinagee.wordpress.com/201 ... s-at-hand/

The inference being that Clark (an Area Authority) told the 'true' story at a Stake in Idaho before he knew it was true.

[_Sanctorian]

I had a similar experience with an exact opposite result. When I was called to my mission, my girlfriend's (later wife) grandmother begged that I find her son and convert him back to the church since I would be serving in his area.

I was rather unsuccessful at reconverting this gentleman, but he was instrumental in my exit. At my wife's grandmothers funeral this son spoke of the deep love and respect he had for his mother. I was moved to tears thinking how cruel gods plan was to keep these two separated for eternity. I went home that night with a heavy heart, stumbled on a precursor to the CES letter shared by a Facebook friend and promptly knew it was all BS.

The next morning at bishopric meeting, I scheduled an appointment with the bishop to tell him I no longer believed and would need to be released as his exec sec. I haven't looked back since.

I wonder if Holland would like to use my story in one of his missionary training talks?

[_I have a question]

I can confirm Elder Clark did not serve on a Stake Presidency with an ex Hells Angel, or anyone else for that matter.

Church service
Former missionary in the South German Mission from 1968 to 1970, elders quorum president, ward executive secretary, bishop’s counselor, bishop, high councilor, stake mission president’s counselor, and Area Seventy.

https://www.lds.org/church/news/new-sev ... r?lang=eng

[_candygal]

I had a similar experience with an exact opposite result. When I was called to my mission, my girlfriend's (later wife) grandmother begged that I find her son and convert him back to the church since I would be serving in his area.

I was rather unsuccessful at reconverting this gentleman, but he was instrumental in my exit. At my wife's grandmothers funeral this son spoke of the deep love and respect he had for his mother. I was moved to tears thinking how cruel gods plan was to keep these two separated for eternity. I went home that night with a heavy heart, stumbled on a precursor to the CES letter shared by a Facebook friend and promptly knew it was all ____.

The next morning at bishopric meeting, I scheduled an appointment with the bishop to tell him I no longer believed and would need to be released as his exec sec. I haven't looked back since.

I wonder if Holland would like to use my story in one of his missionary training talks?

This is the most beautiful postimony I have ever heard!

[Guest]

I see no need to doubt the story. Read the Improbability Principle by Dr. Hand. There are 70,000 LDS missionaries talking to a lot of people every day, so of course some of them are going to hit the spiritual Powerball.

Coincidentally, I read the same book and had the exact same reaction. There is no need to doubt the story itself. The different details in the different version are to be expected as well (considering the different sources).

The key point to emphasize is that when someone asks "What are the odds?", it isn't a rhetorical question. Ask them what the odds are, and if they don't know, then they need to keep thinking. If someone is suggesting that the unlikelihood of something happening proves the existence of God or the Holy Ghost, then ask them what, exactly, the odds must be in order to prove such a thing. What's the exact number? 1 in a million? 1 in a trillion? Every time someone wins the lottery, is that proof that God exists?

Believers will be aghast if you say "Yeah, I believe it happened, but it was probably just a coincidence with no divine intervention needed." It's easy to associate the feeling of something being extremely unlikely with something being orchestrated by a divine power. We're just wired that way.

Read the stories on these threads. There are coincidences that are way more unlikely that what Elder Holland described:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comm ... nce_youve/

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comm ... dence_you/

Also, the nearness of the mission call to Idaho is a surprising point, since it usually doesn't mean anything. Here in Los Angeles (northern LA county), most of the missionaries we have are from Utah (it's rare that they're not), and we've even had some from Northern California, Nevada, and Arizona. And one sister missionary a few months ago was from Costa Mesa, which is about an hour away with no traffic!

[_I have a question]

The problem I have with it is not the story itself, nor the descrepancies between the various retellings.
The issue for me is the claims by Clark and Holland as to how they have come to know the story.

[_krose]

It's easy to associate the feeling of something being extremely unlikely with something being orchestrated by a divine power. We're just wired that way.

I guess that explains why so many times people describe an occurrence as a 'miracle' when it was simply a nice outcome, which may not have even been all that unlikely.