Sextortionist sent on a Mission by LDS Church Apostle

[_Lemmie]

Did everything turn out okay?

Not sure. I mean, Joseph Smith used Jesus' name to coerce girls, men and women into plural marriage, and his deceptions still have a hand in controlling people's lives, calling wickedness good, and good wickedness. Sounds like Jesus wouldn't be too happy with the way Mormons "use" the Atonement.

"Forgive me, Emma, and let me carry on my ways...Jesus says you have to...."

That last line.

[_mentalgymnast]

...Joseph Smith used Jesus' name to coerce girls, men and women into plural marriage, and his deceptions still have a hand in controlling people's lives, calling wickedness good, and good wickedness.

That's open to a lot of controversy and questions. Going this direction would take this thread way off on a tangent.

The question still remains as to how and when God directly steps in to change the course of what humans do. Including missionaries NOT being called because of sinful behavior. The missionary was caught and he went home. Case closed. Did God know he was going to be caught? If so, was it necessary for Him to step in and stop this missionary from making it into the mission field in the first place? Was the fact that the missionary was allowed to jump through the mission gate an opportunity that the Lord was giving him to feel the promptings to confess and repent?

Variables. Variables.

Armchair judges.

Regards,
MG

[_Lemmie]

The question still remains as to how and when God directly steps in to change the course of what humans do....

No it doesn't.

The church said that the court provided no one with any reason to believe that Jensen presented a continuing threat to girls his own age, or that he might be a threat to much younger children. They stated that it was unreasonable to believe the church could have foreseen what child psychology experts and the state's legal system did not.

And there you have it. The Church admitting in court that there is no special power of discernment.

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... =1&t=51864

[_mentalgymnast]

No it doesn't.

Would we expect that God would have stepped in in this case? I'll admit that it is very difficult to wrap your mind around the fact that an unworthy sexual predator could be called on a mission without God directly stepping in and banging the leader on the head and saying, "Wait! Stop! This one doesn't go."

But He didn't. We are left to work this out in our own minds and hearts. It is a difficult call to make as to whether or not God should do this or God should do that.

But if you don't believe in God to begin with I suppose that call doesn't have to be made at all. It's simply a fact of some guy calling another guy to go somewhere and sell stuff. And sometimes the guy doing the conscription is naturally going to make a mistake without even knowing it.

The problem is, how would this look any different from a call being made by and apostle who under the direction of the Lord is calling this same 'guy' on a mission to Mexico not knowing, presumably, that this guy is unworthy...but the Lord is letting the young man have ONE more chance to repent before being found out and being FORCED to repent?

Regards,
MG

[_Lemmie]

No it doesn't.

Would we expect that God would have stepped in in this case? I'll admit that it is very difficult to wrap your mind around the fact that an unworthy sexual predator could be called on a mission without God directly stepping in and banging the leader on the head and saying, "Wait! Stop! This one doesn't go."

But He didn't. We are left to work this out in our own minds and hearts. It is a difficult call to make as to whether or not God should do this or God should do that.

But if you don't believe in God to begin with I suppose that call doesn't have to be made at all. It's simply a fact of some guy calling another guy to go somewhere and sell stuff. And sometimes the guy doing the conscription is naturally going to make a mistake without even knowing it.

The problem is, how would this look any different from a call being made by and apostle who under the direction of the Lord is calling this same 'guy' on a mission to Mexico not knowing, presumably, that this guy is unworthy...but the Lord is letting the young man have ONE more chance to repent before being found out and being FORCED to repent?

What you've done here is to give a perfect example of exactly the problem. All of your explanations come after the fact. Missionaries died, you say god says they were too good to live and were called to do work in the spirit world; missionaries live, you say god saved them; a blessing fails, you say god meant for it to fail, a blessing is followed by healing, you say god heard your prayers. Every single example you give is an after the fact, ad hoc, inconsistent explanation, with only one thing in common, your starting assumption that god was involved.

The problem is your stories are also completely indistinguishable from random chance, so no amount of explanation on your part will ever be sufficient to justify your conclusions.

Except for your last point. You need to stop saying god lets bad people do bad things so they get caught. That is a really hurtful statement to make, as it implies things like god actually sets up victims, in order to catch predators.

Would we expect that God would have stepped in in this case? I'll admit that it is very difficult to wrap your mind around the fact that an unworthy sexual predator could be called on a mission without God directly stepping in and banging the leader on the head and saying, "Wait! Stop! This one doesn't go."

No, it's not difficult to wrap my head around that at all. A sexual predator got called on a mission because the people doing the calling have no ability to see beyond the normal human level of discernment. Your church said so in court.

[_mentalgymnast]

All of your explanations come after the fact...with only one thing in common, your starting assumption that god was involved.

That's true. Kind of hard to reverse engineer, isn't it? If it worked the way we'd all like it to, then there would be very little room to doubt God's hand in the events which surround us and the lives of others.

The problem is your stories are also completely indistinguishable from random chance, so no amount of explanation on your part will ever be sufficient to justify your conclusions.

That's true. I'll hand you that. I can see unfalsifiability a justification for not having faith.

... god lets bad people do bad things so they get caught. That is a really hurtful statement to make, as it implies things like god actually sets up victims, in order to catch predators.

I think that there is much more complexity involved in this linear explanation for God's actions. Not knowing the mind of God in each instance though I'm at a loss to try and describe the in's and out's as to why God does this or doesn't do that in one place or circumstance or another. But I think that reductionist thinking such as the thought expressed above limits God and explains away any reason to have faith that God knows all and can determine the best course for events and outcomes.

A sexual predator got called on a mission because the people doing the calling have no ability to see beyond the normal human level of discernment. Your church said so in court.

I won't dispute the fact that this sexual predator was sent through the 'mission gate' and ended up in the mission field. The question is, again, did God know of this and did He see the ultimate outcome of the series of events that led to the results of this young man's actions...or non-actions? And more importantly, possibly, is how did/does free will/agency work into it? Where/when does God directly disrupt and/or curtail the choices and decisions that we make?

I think know what your answer is. And I can't prove that you're wrong.

Regards,
MG

[_schreech]

I won't dispute the fact that this sexual predator was sent through the 'mission gate' and ended up in the mission field. The question is, again, did God know of this and did He see the ultimate outcome of the series of events that led to the results of this young man's actions...or non-actions? And more importantly, possibly, is how did/does free will/agency work into it? Where/when does God directly disrupt and/or curtail the choices and decisions that we make?

that's disgusting. You worship a ineffectual, impotent god who is incapable of either doing good or stopping evil (primarily because he is imaginary but that glosses over the point that you believe in elohim and blindly follow anyone who claims to speak on his behalf). The fact that you believe in some magical sky being AND make outlandish excuses for harm caused due to his inaction when your god is specifically asked to intervene AND/OR when his "servants" claim to we working on his behalf is just gross and sad. Its almost as if everything that happens has nothing to do with any particular invisible sky wizard since you can't seem to point to any pattern at all that would indicate divine intervention in your wishy washy attempt to downplay the fact that the god you believe in is useless, in every possible way. Your leaders are liars and god does nothing to inspire them - prove me wrong.

Its sad watching you spend day after day here trying to convince yourself to disbelieve reality by concocting the most asinine, convoluted rational I have ever encountered in order to maintain your faith in some sham splinter religion based on the false teachings of a full blown sexual predator. What a wasted life of blind devotion to nonsense.

[_canpakes]

If God were to step in each and every time and curtail every sickness/disease...even when priesthood blessings are given...how would that evolve/look over time? Would there still be room for choosing between doubt and faith? What if God was to step in everytime and evil is about to be perpetrated? How would that evolve/look over time? Would there still be room for choosing between doubt and faith?

Does that matter?

MG -

Consider that if God intervened to curtail every sickness/disease, and every time an evil was about to be perpetrated, then that would be the normal state of affairs, mankind would know no different, and there would still be room for choosing between doubt and faith. The difference between that situation and what actually exists is that (1) other criteria would be used to initiate or bolster faith, and (2) there’d be no sickness/disease and perpetrated evil ... which would seem like a more desirable situation for all.

Let’s look at this another way - why would sickness, disease and evil need to exist in order for faith to exist?

[_schreech]

If God were to step in each and every time and curtail every sickness/disease...even when priesthood blessings are given...how would that evolve/look over time? Would there still be room for choosing between doubt and faith? What if God was to step in everytime and evil is about to be perpetrated? How would that evolve/look over time? Would there still be room for choosing between doubt and faith?

Does that matter?

MG -

Consider that if God intervened to curtail every sickness/disease, and every time an evil was about to be perpetrated, then that would be the normal state of affairs, mankind would know no different, and there would still be room for choosing between doubt and faith. The difference between that situation and what actually exists is that (1) other criteria would be used to initiate or bolster faith, and (2) there’d be no sickness/disease and perpetrated evil ... which would seem like a more desirable situation for all.

Let’s look at this another way - why would sickness, disease and evil need to exist in order for faith to exist?

Because the leaders of the Mormon church have told MG that he needs to believe this as its the only way to explain away an impotent, fickle, random Mormon god who, for anyone paying attention, doesn't seem to involve himself in any aspect of humanity. Its almost like its all just random.

[_mentalgymnast]

If God were to step in each and every time and curtail every sickness/disease...even when priesthood blessings are given...how would that evolve/look over time? Would there still be room for choosing between doubt and faith? What if God was to step in everytime and evil is about to be perpetrated? How would that evolve/look over time? Would there still be room for choosing between doubt and faith?

Does that matter?

MG -

Consider that if God intervened to curtail every sickness/disease, and every time an evil was about to be perpetrated, then that would be the normal state of affairs, mankind would know no different, and there would still be room for choosing between doubt and faith.

Conjecture. We have no way of knowing this. We do know what we do observe. If we observed God directly intervening...constantly...in human affairs, you're saying that faith would still be necessary? That doesn't compute. When we observe what in many respects seems to be randomness and chance in human affairs we are left in a state of disequilibrium and/or questioning, and we are left to either have trust and faith in a supreme being or not. We are left to choose faith over doubt.

The difference between that situation and what actually exists is that (1) other criteria would be used to initiate or bolster faith...

If faith is belief and/or spiritual evidence of things NOT seen but which are true how's that going to work? What criteria are you suggesting that doesn't open up the Pandora's Box of limitations vs. no limitations of God's interventions in the events/lives of mankind?

(2) there’d be no sickness/disease and perpetrated evil ... which would seem like a more desirable situation for all.

Again, conjecture. But from our vantage point, I'd have to agree. I could really go for that. But the fact is, this is not to be and has never been. We are left in a position of having to choose God/faith vs. disbelief. The fact is, sickness and disease and evil in the world are reasons that many people choose to not have faith in God.

Let’s look at this another way - why would sickness, disease and evil need to exist in order for faith to exist?

Faith is trust. If we are in dire straights we are more likely to be brought to a place where we are exercising greater faith/trust in God (is humility still a 'thing'?) than we are when things are going smoothly. The thing is, for most of us things are going rather smoothly, especially in first world countries, and I think we are more likely than not to lose sight of the Lord and his hand and/or blessings in our lives. Extremes tend to turn us towards God or away from God. And as with many things, as a result, we are free/left to choose.

Regards,
MG