Is DCP's New Film Already Dead?

[Rivendale]

Thanks Tom, this is incredibly revealing. So DCP is doing a film on Saints trying to find other Saints, and doesn't know if they were actually found? But when asked about it, and confirming it wasn't known if they were found, he says there's something worse than maybe the Saints never actually found each other, he isn't allowed to make his film about it?

If they keep this up they might become the next John Allen Chau.

[malkie]

Here's a rough transcript of the video's description of the film:

I feel like I've heard this Mormon myth about several other locations as well....

Like this one, perhaps:
https://universe.byu.edu/2000/07/19/con ... ds-church/

“Brigham Young loved Giuseppe’s humility and faithfulness,” said Mary Christensen, a descendant from Dallas, Texas. “Joseph became known as Joseph Young.”

As a result of his monetary contribution, Young also blessed Toronto.

“He received a blessing that his posterity should never want for bread,” said Tom Toronto, 24, a junior from Farmington, Davis county, majoring in geographical information systems.

“As a recipient of this blessing, I feel so much gratitude and hope that in establishing my own legacy, I can work as hard as my great-grandfather,” he said.

Although none of [Giuseppe/Joseph Toronto/Taranto's] immediate family converted, Toronto was instrumental in the conversion of many Italians.

Today, Toronto has hundreds of descendants.

Does this mean "hundreds of Giuseppe/Joseph Toronto/Taranto's descendants? Or just hundreds of descendants of Italian converts?

[Marcus]

I feel like I've heard this Mormon myth about several other locations as well....

Like this one, perhaps…

Yes, there seem to be many of these… uh, manufactured miracles.

Also, didn’t the Interpreter already do this? Here’s the description of a video from last year:

The Interpreter Foundation
6.38K subscribers

955 views May 17, 2022
A virtual fireside with Jeffrey M. Bradshaw hosted by Ross Boundy, 14 May 2022

NKULU WAÑYINDO Rigobert lived with his family in a remote region of Zaïre (now the Democratic Republic of the Congo) near Malemba Nkulu. In 1975, he began looking for a new church. There were troubles in the church that he and others in neighboring villages had been attending. People were scattering, some here and some there. What should be done? WAÑYINDO decided to fast and pray for three days. One night during his fast, he had a dream. In the dream, he was given the answer to his prayer. The names of three churches were mentioned. He already knew something about two of the churches, but the name of the third church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, was new to him. In this fireside, we will tell the rest of this story of faith and persistence, a story which culminated in the challenging voyage of two young African returned missionaries to this area that had not been visited by church representatives for three decades. The example of the patience and faith of the “lost” Saints of Malemba Nkulu is something from which each of us can draw strength and courage in our individual lives. hosted by Ross Boundy, 14 May 2022

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_UEDGoYA9c

[Marcus]

Some excerpts from the transcript that I think explain the story DCP was asked about:

WAÑYINDO Rigobert lived with his family in a remote region of Zaïre (now the Democratic Republic of the Congo) near Malemba Nkulu. In 1975, he began looking for a new church. There were troubles in the church that he and others in neighboring villages had been attending. People were scattering, some here and some there. What should be done? WAÑYINDO decided to fast and pray for three days. One night during his fast, he had a dream. In the dream, he was given the answer to his prayer. The names of three churches were mentioned. He already knew something about two of the churches, but the name of the third church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, was new to him. In this fireside, we will tell the rest of this story of faith and persistence, a story which culminated in the challenging voyage of two young African returned missionaries to this area that had not been visited by church representatives for three decades. The example of the patience and faith of the “lost” Saints of Malemba Nkulu is something from which each of us can draw strength and courage in our individual lives. hosted by Ross Boundy, 14 May 2022
Key moments

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Synopsis of Our Missionary Experiences in the Democratic Republic of the Congo
0:05

Administrative Areas of the Church in Africa
4:17

Dave David Windsor
58:27
Show
Transcript

…
35:38
so that raises the question how did that very difficult to understand and explain
35:44
story begin really we don't have all the answers yet but we now have some glimpses
35:50
and and that's what we've been wondering for a while as historians of the church in the country
35:58
me tell the story a little bit then kulu juanindo rigobear who circled in the middle there lived with his family
36:04
not far from malamba and kulu in what was then zaire in 1975 he began looking for a new
36:10
church there were troubles in the church that he and the neighboring and others in the neighboring villages
36:15
have been attending people were scattering some here and some there what should be done
36:20
juanindo decided to fast and pray for three days one night during his fast he had a dream
36:27
in the dream he was given the answer to his prayer the names of three churches were mentioned
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he already knew something about two of the churches but the name of the third church the church of jesus christ of latter-day
36:39
saints was new to him it seems that at that time he didn't know whether a church with that name
36:44
even existed to find out what the lord wanted them to do one indo decided to use the
36:49
scriptural method of casting lots casting lots is a way of selecting or eliminating several options or of a
36:56
choice often done by choosing one slip of paper or another kind of small object from among several
37:02
sometimes people today do something similar when they seek spiritual guidance by opening up the scriptures to
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a random page in such situations seekers pray that god will intervene to influence their choice
37:14
thus making his will known in proverbs 16 33 we read the lot is
37:19
cast into the lab but the decision is holy for the lord juanindo assembled people from three
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villages of kichon kikonja songwei and manga to his home only the men were invited into the house
37:32
the women and children were to wait outside until an announcement of the decision was made juanindo cut some paper into three
37:39
pieces and wrote the name of one of the three churches on each piece he crumpled the papers and threw them into the air
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after the papers had fallen to the ground he called for gervais the the young son of juanindo's friend museenge
37:53
to come into the house and choose one of the papers juanindo opened up the paper that gervais had picked and read it out to
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everyone the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints the process was repeated three times each time gervais
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picked the same paper the one that read the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints
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the people decided that from then on they would call their church the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints
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this was by the way five years before the first official mission in west africa was opened in 1980 and more than
38:27
a decade before a mission would be established in the dr congo at that time there was a group of
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catholic sister missionaries who were stationed in malamban kulu eventually they heard about the group one day the
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sisters told them you call your church the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints but it seems there's already a
38:44
church by that name somewhere else you should look into it the group leaders learned that the
38:50
church was headquartered in the united states in salt lake city so in 1977 two years after the dream
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kulu niendo wrote a letter to spencer w kimball the president of the church asking whether their people could become
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part of the church some people remember that president kimball wrote a personal reply but neither one yindo's first letter nor a
39:10
reply from president kimball have yet been located in the church archives however
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now we know that nikula lupaka jean the son of juanindo carefully preserved a letter from president james e faust of
39:23
the first presidency in his reply dated by august 19 1977
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president faust wrote quote we recently received a letter from you inquiring about the church of jesus
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christ of latter-day saints i advise that the church is not now organized in your part of the world and
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we are unable to say at this time whether or not we will be able to have any activity organization in the future
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i pray the lord will bless you in your interest in the gospel of jesus christ sincerely james e faust president
39:54
altogether six letters from one yindo have now been found in the church archives dating from 1979 to 1986 along
40:02
with several replies whenever the reply came when yindo would call his people together to read it the
40:08
people were told to be strong faithful and patient until the church could be officially recognized in the dr congo
40:13
and a mission could be established the saints could not be dissuaded from their belief that the missionaries would come
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to them they said we're going to keep riding salt lake city until they're tired of hearing from us and someday
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they'll bring the church to the place where we live one day juanindo was surprised to see a notice from the church of christ in
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zaire an umbrella organization for protestant churches indicating that the church of jesus christ latter-day saints
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had now received official recognition in 1979 he wrote to the president of the
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swiss geneva mission who then had responsibility for the church in africa to ask whether the church mentioned was
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really our church sadly wanindo was told that the pastor of a church in kinshasa had registered
40:55
the church on his own without permission from church headquarters however the upside of this development
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was that it highlighted the urgency of obtaining proper legal status for the church in zaire
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oscar w mcconkery jr an attorney for the church who was familiar with complexities of such issues began a
41:12
series of visits to the country to see what could be done these visits culminated on the 11th of
41:19
february 1986 in a much publicized dinner meeting that took place between david m kennedy a church ambassador and
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former u.s secretary of the treasury our bae and jean hutchings the couple representing the church in zaire and
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president mobutu seseko president of the republic of zaire
41:37
this the meeting took place at the sprawling presidential estate in gradolite the meeting lasted four hours
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and was widely covered on radio and television across the country the fascinating details of the meeting will
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have to be told another time the important outcome was mobutu's announcement the church would be legally
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recognized in zaire news accounts were mostly favorable though with some inexplicable details
42:02
such as the fact that the faith was founded by according to the newspaper report quote a certain walter silwald
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who had divine visions mobutu was quoted as saying quote that the Mormon faith is the most rigorous in
42:15
the world aiming to be fair and even-handed the news report said that while Mormons quote encouraged polygamy there was also
42:22
another faction of the Mormons who reject polioni the next day on 13th february 1986 the
42:29
group of church representatives went to the law offices of gilman and associates to continue formalities for church
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recognition the new mission leaders present sister banjean hutchings are shown it right
42:40
meanwhile juanindo had been waiting in anticipation for news of these momentous events after organizing branches in the
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capital city of kinshasa in the spring and summer president sister hutchings were now ready to take a first-hand look
42:52
at the situation of the saints in the southern areas of the country and later dated night 18 september 1986
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juanindo was invited to meet with president hutchings upon his arrival in lubumbashi
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that would be 11 days later on september 29th sadly it seems unlikely that they ever
43:12
met given the relatively short notice juanindo had been given due to slow postal service and the difficulties of
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travel in that part of the country juanindo and his group remained hopeful of a future visit by representatives of
43:24
the church however in a letter written to juanindo on 22nd october 1987 a year
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later president hutchings relayed the disappointing news that at that time there were only four couples in the
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whole of zaire thus quote it is impossible to travel to other cities now
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even for a voyage of inspection rest assured that the time will come when there will be larger missionary
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forces and that the work will be established among you continue your studies especially in the Book of Mormon
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your brother harvey hutchings president the saints did continue their study of
43:59
the Book of Mormon which was a good thing because they ended up having to wait until 1991 before first group of
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official visitors finally arrived fully 16 years after wanindo's dream
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at that time jay ballard washburn counselor in the africa area presidency asked brothers bonza monga and mishoni
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mwana donation and district missionaries in lumumbashi to make the arduous 1 600 kilometer or
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1000 mile round-trip journey to visit the groups nearly the same distance as the pioneer trek from nauvoo illinois to
44:30
the salt lake valley the table shown here lists the total number of families and individuals of
44:36
each of the 14 groups identified in the 1991 report summing to over 500 persons
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in all who had accepted the gospel as a result of juanindo's dream and the group's enthusiastic missionary work
44:48
besides the careful listing of names and birth dates organized by families groups and zones the 25-page report briefly
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summarized a surprisingly broad range of topics relating to living conditions the report concluded as follows quote
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the members and friends of the church are very committed to the restored gospel they are resolute and have
45:09
endured for 14 years without any visits or guidance from missionaries many begged for baptism and other
45:15
ordinances of the this last dispensation so they can become active members of the church of jesus christ of latter-day
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saints they are truly patient hoping to receive the said ordinances of the gospel and the official establishment of
45:28
the church the friends of the church in the two zones manifest a strong faith in jesus christ
45:34
they are capable of providing their own leadership once the church is officially established in their place
45:41
although we have no record of the death of juanindo the fact that his last known letter to church leadership was written
45:47
in 1986 and the fact that he was not present during the 1991 visit when taken together suggests that he passed away
45:54
sometime in the intervening years as we read in hebrews 11 13 quote he
46:00
died in faith not having seen the promises but having seen them afar off and embraced them
46:07
here's what elder molga had to say about juanindo nom 3 respected and um
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d this is where things stood until 2021 30 years after the first and last
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official visit of church representatives to the villages and 46 years after juanindo's original dream
46:41
by now the first generation of saints had almost all passed away where were those saints located were
46:47
they still meeting were they still faithful had their beliefs and practices become corrupted over time was their
46:53
desire for baptism and other blessings of church membership as strong as they were when the groups began many decades
46:59
before no one knew the answers to these questions having received recently witnessed an
47:04
attempted visit to these groups that met with failure chicoi atanas a bishop and church history
47:10
representative in lubumbashi knew that anyone who undertook such a trip to find these answers would need to be extremely
47:16
well prepared with the support of church history leadership and area presidency
47:21
leadership in africa and salt lake city and the divinely provided help of two intrepid young return missionaries
47:27
siblings who went to different missions a voyage of discovery was envisioned as much training and preparation took
47:33
place as possible over the course of a few months but the truth was that there was a limit to what could be planned in
47:38
advance no one knew exactly what they needed to go and what where they needed to go and
47:43
what they needed to do to find out they would need to rely holy on their own resources and the direction and help
47:49
they would receive from the spirit of the lord their first most tangible goal was to see whether they could locate documents
47:55
and photos that they would eliminate begin to illuminate the early history of these groups for example the inspiring
48:01
history of juanindo's dream that led these saints to the church related earlier
48:06
was completely unknown before the missionary journeys of these two brothers pueto and
48:12
more importantly the hope was to understand the current condition of these brothers and sisters so that
48:18
perhaps at last nearly after nearly 50 years church leaders could prepare a way when the time was right to bring them
48:24
into full fellowship in the complete blessings of the gospel the adventures and miracles that plato
48:30
and lunga experienced on the trip could not be told tonight but before concluding i wanted to share the results
48:35
their voyage in a few brief sketches in their journey they found that all the
48:41
pioneer leaders of the groups who were alive in 1991 had now passed away except two widows and the founders
48:50
they learned that the records of the story of the dreams and revelations that brought the church to their ancestors
48:55
were still preserved and being read among them they collected 30 historic documents
49:01
dating to 1979 that have been carefully preserved in a very rural area by kulu
49:07
lupaka son of juanindo
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i'm sorry there's the one of the widows
49:18
here's one of the accounts that have been preserved and here's who pacquiao with
49:23
some of those accounts they learned that scarce accounts copies
49:29
of the Book of Mormon were being shared in the villages so that each person could have their turn to read
49:34
they attended a weekly sunday school meeting in manga and recorded a message from each member of the group let's
49:40
listen to the testimony of one of the sons of halume and the mother of this son who had born
49:46
and raised 12 children in all kitab
49:54
i know about the Book of Mormon really because
50:00
have you already read it yes how many times i'm saying
50:08
so many times i cannot count how many time i
50:25
in this area i'll be very happy
50:32
i knew this changed since 1990 wow
50:39
no i'm not yet to be baptized i say we have your skin
50:48
we need to be baptized also to have our church in this area wow
50:54
[Music]
51:01
all of them they are member of the church of jesus christ but it's not yet be baptized they have not only testimony
51:08
and strong faith i played this testimony from one of the
51:15
pioneers in malama kulu but he bears a very strong testimony of eternal families in the temple despite never
51:21
having been to the temple in fact he's probably never heard the the testimony of a modern prophet and
51:28
probably never seen a picture of a modern prophet other than joseph smith!…


about the situation of the saints and lemba and kulu firsthand some of us have begun to discuss the
56:52
possibility of producing a video documentary in the incredible history of the church in the dr congo that would be
56:58
eventually shared with saints around all the throughout all around the world perhaps time to coincide with the
57:03
dedication of the lubombashi temple or the appearance of the fourth and last volume of saints which will feature many
57:09
stories about the international church if successful the dr congo project would be another in a series of highly
57:15
acclaimed films illuminating inspiring and sometimes misunderstood episodes in church history produced in conjunction
57:22
with the interpreter foundation after a surprisingly successful run at movie theaters around the country
57:28
witnesses took first prize in feature films at the lds film festival the companion documentary undaunted has
57:35
recently been released on dvd and streaming video platforms and the screenplay for a new feature
57:41
film uh telling of how the lord prepared brigham young to lead the church following the tragic martyrdom of the
57:47
prophet joseph smith is currently being written so if you have any interest in supporting these kind of productions
57:53
please contact me at interpreter.org interpreterfoundation.org i also promised my brother and friend
58:00
jim merci
1:03:48
uh now we can have some questions and answers hopefully let me start with one um these uh videos that you showed us so
1:03:56
the saints in the congo were really fascinating but where did you get those were those some of you arranged yourself or is that
1:04:02
something that's more widely available uh the ones of the church leaders are from uh oral history interviews that
1:04:08
i've done for the church history department the there are many more of the saints themselves that are
1:04:15
um ones some of the ones that were taking malenbun kulu they were actually taken
1:04:20
by the two young missionaries who had their mission there in 2021 who took their
1:04:26
short mission to find out what happened to those people so um uh yeah so some are ones that i've
1:04:31
collected and some are ones that other people have taken absolutely fascinating
1:04:37
uh feel free to unmute and ask any questions you like of brother bradshaw…

I wonder if the “casting of lots” to pick the name for their religion, from a dream, is what caused this story to be scuttled by the Mormon leaders?

[Tom]

Yes, Marcus found the account from Jeff Bradshaw. So why did the church tell the Interpreter Foundation to stop the film project?

It seems embarrassing that the church has essentially ignored these people for 50 years. Make a few visits, write a long report. But don't try to baptize anyone or establish the church.

[Marcus]

The Mormon church officially tells a different story

…the Banzas, they left Zaire in 1976 to study in Geneva, Switzerland, afforded scholarships by a homeland religious council. When they were baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in October 1979, however, the scholarships were terminated and the two and their sons, Junior and Philippe, returned home.

It wasn’t until three years later that the Banza family connected with the first of several Latter-day Saint families to work in the American Embassy in Kinshasa; they would meet on Sundays to partake of the sacrament.

Belgium since 1969, Nkitabungi Mbuyi was tracted out by missionaries there and baptized in 1980. Two years later, he left to serve as a missionary in the England Birmingham Mission. Once back in Brussels, visa problems resulted in his forced return to Zaire.

They aren’t the only Congolese “pioneers” — Jean Jacquaes Tamba-Tamba was baptized in Belgium in October 1977, a year before the 1978 revelation that all male members could receive the priesthood. Facing opposition from his African friends for his joining the Church, he returned to Zaire after completing his graduate studies and continued to be ministered to by his former home teacher in Belgium, who remained in contact and also looped in the International Mission for communication and correspondence.

And some learned of the Church on their home soil, well before the official recognition. They include 18-year-old Gilbert Mingotyi, who came across a copy of Elder LeGrand Richards’ book “A Marvelous Work and a Wonder” in 1985, borrowed it, closely scrutinized it, received confirmations of its truths and joined a study group with Kasongo Mulunda Ngoy in the town of Lubumbashi.

Church member Gilbert Mingtoyi, left, assists with the baptism of three men at the edge of an abandoned copper mine near Lubumbashi, Zaire, in 1987. Elder Arie Noot and Sister Ante Noot are the senior missionaries in the photo. Mingtoyi had been baptized in May 1987 at the same location as a part of baptismal service involving 80 converts.

More than a decade earlier, Kasongo himself had discovered a library book mentioning The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and ended up writing to Church headquarters, receiving a reply from President Spencer W. Kimball and ongoing correspondence from the International Mission.

Missionary lessons soon followed the early 1986 official recognition. Elder R. Bay Hutchings and Sister Jean Hutchings were the first missionary couple assigned to Zaire in 1985 when the Church was established as a non-profit organization; they led the Zaire Kinshasa Mission when it was organized in 1987.

Meetings were held — the first in the Nkitabungi Mbuyi living room, then the carport. A branch was formed, with Michael C. Bowcutt — working at the embassy — called as branch president. Then baptisms, the first being Junior and Philippe Banza, in the swimming pool behind the Bowcutt home.

On Aug. 30, 1987, in the garden area of the Bowcutt home, Elder Marvin J. Ashton of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles dedicated the country for the preaching of the gospel.


https://www.thechurchnews.com/2019/4/18 ... -lds-congo

[Marcus]

History from the end of the church news article quoted above.

1986

January — Ralph Bay Hutchings and Jean Hutchings are set apart as the first missionaries in Zaire (now the DR Congo) Feb. 12 — Zaire President Mobutu Sese Seku à Gbadolite gives verbal permission for the Church to hold meetings and send other missionaries to Zaire Feb. 23 — First official meeting of the Church is held in the Nkitabungi Mbuyi home in Kinshasa. The meeting includes the ordinance of the sacrament, with 25 people attending. April 12 — The presidential order is signed, granting The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the right to operate throughout the country. June 1 — The first baptisms in Zaire — brothers Junior and Philippe Banza — are performed in the swimming pool of the Michael C. Bowcutt home in Kinshasa June 12 — The Kinshasa Zaire District is created, with Elder Robert L. Backman of the Presidency of the Seventy as acting district leader. Sept. 14 — The Kinshasa Branch is organized.

1987

May 3 — The Kinshasa Branch is divided into two branches — Limete and Binza. July 1 — The Zaire Kinshasa Mission is opened, led by President and Sister Hutchings. Membership in the country reaches 300. Aug. 30 — Elder Marvin J. Ashton of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles dedicates Zaire for the preaching of the gospel. A branch conference is held later that day with 215 in attendance. Sept. 11 — A branch of the Church is organized in Lubumbashi.

1988

Sept. 18 — The first Kinshasa District is organized, and the two local branches are divided to create four now in the city.

1991

January through June — The first missionaries called from the DR Congo begin their missions. June 9 — The Makelekele Branch in Brazzaville, Republic of Congo, is organized. Brazzaville is located north of Kinshasa, on the opposite bank of the Congo River.

1993-1994

Dec. 29 through July 17 — After relocating mission headquarters to Brazzaville, Republic of Congo in the fall, the mission in Zaire is closed, due to wars in the region. Mission headquarters eventually return to Kinshasa.

1996

July 30 — The first group of Congolese Latter-day Saints — 10 couples and one child — leave to attend the Johannesburg South Africa Temple. Nov. 10 — The Kinshasa Zaire Stake is created.

[Marcus]

Loos like yet another dubious “miracle”.

[Doctor Steuss]

Sounds like a variant of:

In 1980, an entire Nivaclé native tribe of 200 people converted to the gospel when missionaries told them the story of the Savior visiting the Americas. The leader of the tribe recognized the story as one passed down from their ancestors and knew he was hearing restored truths.

Tribe Knew Book of Mormon Stories Before Missionaries Arrived

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Sounds like a variant of:

In 1980, an entire Nivaclé native tribe of 200 people converted to the gospel when missionaries told them the story of the Savior visiting the Americas. The leader of the tribe recognized the story as one passed down from their ancestors and knew he was hearing restored truths.

Tribe Knew Book of Mormon Stories Before Missionaries Arrived

This one sounds familiar to me. I was going to say I recall being told about remote people in Latin American having these kinds of experiences.

- Doc