Mormonism's NDE Cult

[Kishkumen]

Pontius and Mendenhall are like polar opposites. But both men were responsible for promoting the notion that NDE's can remove or tear the veil, resulting in supernatural abilities. And that led directly to Chad Daybell, Lori Vallow, Tim Ballard, and others. It is certainly possible that Pontius and or Harrison were aware of Doug and Denise Mendenhall before Visions of Glory was published, but I haven't found a direct reference.

Great research, RI! What amazes me is how all of this happened within the LDS Church, and probably still does. I guess one would call it a movement within the LDS Church. As long as its luminaries don't set themselves up as leaders within LDS spaces and claim to be teaching official doctrine, they can probably get away with a lot.

[Res Ipsa]

Pontius and Mendenhall are like polar opposites. But both men were responsible for promoting the notion that NDE's can remove or tear the veil, resulting in supernatural abilities. And that led directly to Chad Daybell, Lori Vallow, Tim Ballard, and others. It is certainly possible that Pontius and or Harrison were aware of Doug and Denise Mendenhall before Visions of Glory was published, but I haven't found a direct reference.

Great research, RI! What amazes me is how all of this happened within the LDS Church, and probably still does. I guess one would call it a movement within the LDS Church. As long as its luminaries don't set themselves up as leaders within LDS spaces and claim to be teaching official doctrine, they can probably get away with a lot.

Thanks! I think a good question to ask is “How does an apocalyptic Christian cult transition into a stable Christian sect that doesn’t perpetually spin off apocalyptic cults?”

In other words, how did the original apocalyptic Christ cults evolve into the Catholic Church? How did early Christianity evolve into sects that came to accept the non-return of Christ for going on 2000 years?

That’s not to say that Modern Christianity doesn’t spin off apocalyptic cults. But those cults appear endemic in LDS culture. And their formation appears to be accelerating.

We’ve all discussed many times how the easy availability of church history on the internet has led many folks out of the church. But, what I haven’t thought about much is how the same thing drives faithful members toward fundamentalism. M addition it allows those fundamentalists to find each other and communicate out of the view of church leadership.

The internet also helped evolve the accepted LDS custom of firesides into larger scale conferences where like minded people meet face to face. So, you get FIRM and Preparing a People, etc. And, for the most part, leadership leaves those groups alone until they catch folks practicing polygamy or a new prophet challenges the hierarchy.

But, I think there’s underlying dynamic that the internet accelerated but did not create. I think it has something to do with the period of relative isolation in Utah during which the leadership attempted to deal with the question I posed by rewriting the early history of the church. But, being record keepers, they didn’t destroy the original evidence. Also, because of the time period when the church was created, they couldn’t control all the evidence.

As a result, the modern correlated, bureaucratic church drifted farther and farther from the original apocalyptic cult, but diligent researchers could always find the original. Now, anyone can. And, while I think the new willingness to open the records it has attempted to conceal is healthy, it makes it harder for the average member to reconcile the early and modern churches.

So, tentative working hypothesis: unless church leadership figured out how to reconcile the early church with the modern church in a comprehensive, systematic way, apocalyptic cults will continue to spin off at a high rate. Simply slipping new essays into the website without explanation from leadership or throwing prior prophets under the bus in an ad hoc fashion simply adds to the perception that leadership is badly off course.

[Kishkumen]

The way you have laid this situation out, it looks like the problem is actually one of literacy. Today people have too much access to too much information. In the past, very few people were literate, and they could be manipulated by the few people who were wealthy and learned to follow a movement. Christianity itself was a varied collection of groups of different sizes even though that was the case. What it took to unify Christianity was its union with the Roman Empire. It was only when you could lose your life for failing to be the right kind of Christian that people fell in line. Religious freedom made the outbreak of all kinds of crazy groups possible, and there have been, in the centuries after the dominance of the Catholic Church in the West has waned, many little extreme apocalyptic sects. With the cheap book production and the internet, it is easy to spread a kooky message far and wide with very little in the way of financial resources. To think of all the damage John Pontius’ book has done. You can buy it right now on Amazon for less than one lunch.

[Res Ipsa]

Interesting. That might be an explanation for societal trends that go far beyond Mormonism.

[Res Ipsa]

Reverend, thanks for recommending Terrible Revolution. Chris is an excellent writer, and his focus on members, in contrast to leaders, is very helpful in understanding tensions that have always existed in terms of control over the narrative. I was unaware of the radio personalities he discusses (like Gayle Smith), who are the precursors to todays podcasters.

Lots of good information. He also explains how the church leaders dealt with Christ not returning in 1890-91 and tried to make the transition away from an anti-US apocalyptic cult into a pro-US established millennial church. In some ways, the current NDE-apocalyptic-visionary-prepper movement is a throwback to the Utah territory days.

[Kishkumen]

Reverend, thanks for recommending Terrible Revolution. Chris is an excellent writer, and his focus on members, in contrast to leaders, is very helpful in understanding tensions that have always existed in terms of control over the narrative. I was unaware of the radio personalities he discusses (like Gayle Smith), who are the precursors to todays podcasters.

Lots of good information. He also explains how the church leaders dealt with Christ not returning in 1890-91 and tried to make the transition away from an anti-US apocalyptic cult into a pro-US established millennial church. In some ways, the current NDE-apocalyptic-visionary-prepper movement is a throwback to the Utah territory days.

I am pleased you enjoyed it, RI! It is really an eye-opener. It helped me remember that the kooky Mormonism of today's Preppers already existed when I was a kid, and my extended family was not so far away from it that it did not touch us too.

[Res Ipsa]

I really hadn't followed the Daybell/Vallow story while it was unfolding. As I've found out more of the details, it's clear to me that Chad Daybell had created a dangerous cult. Not only did he claim to be able to tell whether people were "light' or "dark," he claimed to be able to tell when an evil spirit had invaded a "dark" person. Not only could he tell when it had happened, he claimed to know the name of the evil spirit. Evil spirits could be cast out through a combination of "energy work" and spiritual warfare, and his cult would try to perform "castings" to remove the evil spirit. But, if the castings were unsuccessful, the only way to save the person was to kill the body that the evil spirit had inhabited.

So, when he killed his wife, it wasn't really his wife. He had previously texted Lori the name of the evil spirit that had invaded Tammy. When Lori stated before her sentencing that her children hadn't been murdered, it's because they weren't her children. They were evil spirits inhabiting her children's bodies.

At the time of the murders, it appears that only Chad, Lori and her brother Alex had accepted the notion that killing the bodies to get rid of the evil spirit was necessary (and, in fact, good). A fourth appeared to have bought in at some point -- she had married Alex at Chad's urging. Alex, Lori and Chad had gotten away with killing two people: Lori's husband and Chad's wife. If they hadn't been so arrogant as to believe they could get away with making Lori's two youngest children simply vanish, there could have been many more victims. Chad's list of "dark" people included anyone he knew who expressed suspicions about him. I think that there are many critics of Chad, including members of Chad's and Lori's extended families, that are lucky to be alive.

Also, the more I hear and read, the more I find ideas that originated with Doug and Denise Mendenhall showing up in the teachings of more high profile people. He posted on and was discussed quite a bit on the LDSFF in a subsection that has since been discontinued and removed from the site. He was also a frequent poster on AVOW. I'd be very interested in knowing whether Thom Harrison or John Pontius had read his books or attended one of the many firesides and workshops Doug and Denise gave before Visions of Glory was published. Another important figure that I've not seen discussed that much is Roger K. Young, who wrote many books/pamphlets on signs of the end times. He founded AVOW and then partnered with Chris Parrett, who now owns AVOW. It would be interesting to trace the history of the different people who came together to form what has been called a hydra-cult by LDS members in the 2010s.

[huckelberry]

I was remembering a book by Scott Peck and checked Wikapedia article for him and found this description

Evil is described by Peck as "militant ignorance". The original Judeo-Christian concept of "sin" is as a process that leads us to "miss the mark" and fall short of perfection.[8] Peck argues that while most people are conscious of this, at least on some level, those that are evil actively and militantly refuse this consciousness. Peck considers those he calls evil to be attempting to escape and hide from their own conscience (through self-deception), and views this as being quite distinct from the apparent absence of conscience evident in sociopathy.[8]

According to Peck, an evil person:[7][8]

is consistently self-deceiving, with the intent of avoiding guilt and maintaining a self-image of perfection
deceives others as a consequence of their own self-deception
projects his or her evils and sins onto very specific targets (scapegoats) while being apparently normal with everyone else ("their insensitivity toward him was selective" (Peck, 1983/1988, p 105[8]))
commonly hates with the pretense of love, for the purposes of self-deception as much as deception of others
abuses political (emotional) power ("the imposition of one's will upon others by overt or covert coercion" (Peck, 1978/1992, p298[7]))
maintains a high level of respectability, and lies incessantly to do so
is consistent in his or her sins. Evil persons are characterized not so much by the magnitude of their sins, but by their consistency (of destructiveness)
is unable to think from the viewpoint of their victim (scapegoating)
has a covert intolerance to criticism and other forms of narcissistic injury

Most evil people realize the evil deep within themselves, but are unable to tolerate the pain of introspection, or admit to themselves that they are evil. Thus, they constantly run away from their evil by putting themselves in a position of moral superiority and putting the focus of evil on others. Evil is an extreme form of what Peck, in The Road Less Traveled, calls a character and personality disorder.[7][8]

Perhaps what is referred here to as evil may not be bad spirits but is something and that something can wield power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck

This description seems to fit the individuals who are subjects in this thread. Then there is some political guy as well.

[Kishkumen]

I really hadn't followed the Daybell/Vallow story while it was unfolding. As I've found out more of the details, it's clear to me that Chad Daybell had created a dangerous cult. Not only did he claim to be able to tell whether people were "light' or "dark," he claimed to be able to tell when an evil spirit had invaded a "dark" person. Not only could he tell when it had happened, he claimed to know the name of the evil spirit. Evil spirits could be cast out through a combination of "energy work" and spiritual warfare, and his cult would try to perform "castings" to remove the evil spirit. But, if the castings were unsuccessful, the only way to save the person was to kill the body that the evil spirit had inhabited.

So, when he killed his wife, it wasn't really his wife. He had previously texted Lori the name of the evil spirit that had invaded Tammy. When Lori stated before her sentencing that her children hadn't been murdered, it's because they weren't her children. They were evil spirits inhabiting her children's bodies.

At the time of the murders, it appears that only Chad, Lori and her brother Alex had accepted the notion that killing the bodies to get rid of the evil spirit was necessary (and, in fact, good). A fourth appeared to have bought in at some point -- she had married Alex at Chad's urging. Alex, Lori and Chad had gotten away with killing two people: Lori's husband and Chad's wife. If they hadn't been so arrogant as to believe they could get away with making Lori's two youngest children simply vanish, there could have been many more victims. Chad's list of "dark" people included anyone he knew who expressed suspicions about him. I think that there are many critics of Chad, including members of Chad's and Lori's extended families, that are lucky to be alive.

Also, the more I hear and read, the more I find ideas that originated with Doug and Denise Mendenhall showing up in the teachings of more high profile people. He posted on and was discussed quite a bit on the LDSFF in a subsection that has since been discontinued and removed from the site. He was also a frequent poster on AVOW. I'd be very interested in knowing whether Thom Harrison or John Pontius had read his books or attended one of the many firesides and workshops Doug and Denise gave before Visions of Glory was published. Another important figure that I've not seen discussed that much is Roger K. Young, who wrote many books/pamphlets on signs of the end times. He founded AVOW and then partnered with Chris Parrett, who now owns AVOW. It would be interesting to trace the history of the different people who came together to form what has been called a hydra-cult by LDS members in the 2010s.

Fascinating and illuminating information, RI! Thanks for posting this!

[Res Ipsa]

The cult strikes again: https://www.eastidahonews.com/2023/10/d ... r-answers/ Mother and uncle abduct 16 year-old boy that they believe is the Davidic Servant.

The teen was found safe and sound at the border between Canada and Alaska.https://www.eastidahonews.com/2023/10/m ... nd-sister/

The family lived in Gilbert Arizona, where the Vallow family lived before Lori abruptly moved to Rexburg to be near Chad.

Lauren Matthias of the Hidden True Crime podcast posted a story yesterday, before the teen was found. https://youtu.be/tNeNSN6rZ2c Significantly, Lori Vallow's sister Heather has come forward and said that Thom Harrison invited Chad and Lori to his office and told them that his visions, as expressed in Visions of Glory, are true and are happening. The panic of this newly discovered group may have been set off by a mass e-mail sent to everyone who had ever been registered at AVOW by Christopher Parret about a nuclear Libya getting involved in the middle east conflict.