Joseph Smith--the best 'wing man' Brigham Young ever had

[Limnor]

“marrying other men’s spouses. While it makes for an entertaining storyline, it does not square with the historical record.”

Joseph’s polyandry is based on the historical record, yes?

[Rivendale]

“marrying other men’s spouses. While it makes for an entertaining storyline, it does not square with the historical record.”

Joseph’s polyandry is based on the historical record, yes?

Yes. Orson Hyde's wife for one.

[Marcus]

If you’ve read the information I’ve posted it seems to portray a woman (Elizabeth) who was truly converted to the gospel and the truth she saw in it…rather than any one man. She remained steadfast in her testimony at the expense of alienating her sister and her family. When she pointed the finger at Martha she would have known that was the end of her sisterly relationship. Wouldn’t you think that this must have torn her apart?

It makes one at least suspicious of the relationship Martha had with the scoundrel named John C. Bennett.

Regards,
MG

How does anything in your first paragraph lead to anything you say in the second one?

I agree, it doesn't. It's amusing that the reasons given in response to your question are: "you did it too," then "the proof is upthread I promise but no I can't point to it or summarize it or re-state it, but it's there," and then finally, "it does too." Arguments of a child.

Bottom line, assuming one's conclusions is an illogical position from which to argue, it weakens every position taken.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

“marrying other men’s spouses. While it makes for an entertaining storyline, it does not square with the historical record.”

Joseph’s polyandry is based on the historical record, yes?

Yes. Orson Hyde's wife for one.

It’s undisputed that Joseph married at least 11 (some scholars believe at least 14) women who were already married to other living men.

Is Fibber MG really trying to dispute this?

[Limnor]

MG cited it here:

Some writers affirm that Joseph Smith put pressure on women to marry him. They portray him almost as a predator gallivanting about Nauvoo seeking new wives, even marrying other men’s spouses. While it makes for an entertaining storyline, it does not square with the historical record. One of Joseph’s plural wives, Lucy Walker, remembered the Prophet's counsel: “A woman would have her choice, this was a privilege that could not be denied her.”7 The Prophet taught that eternal marriage was necessary for exaltation and encouraged all those he taught to comply, but he always respected their agency and choices in the matter.
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/wp- ... lygamy.pdf

Different strokes for different folks, it seems. The same thing is true today.

Regards,
MG

I assume since it was cited MG agrees?

[MG 2.0]

How does anything in your first paragraph lead to anything you say in the second one?

I agree, it doesn't. It's amusing that the reasons given in response to your question are: "you did it too," then "the proof is upthread I promise but no I can't point to it or summarize it or re-state it, but it's there," and then finally, "it does too." Arguments of a child.

Bottom line, assuming one's conclusions is an illogical position from which to argue, it weakens every position taken.

I notice that you are valiantly trying to steer the conversation away from the substance of what I’ve been presenting in regards to Elisabeth Brotherton and what effect/connection that might have with Martha and her affidavit.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Yes. Orson Hyde's wife for one.

It’s undisputed that Joseph married at least 11 (some scholars believe at least 14) women who were already married to other living men.

Yes, that is true. Are you too evading the actual substance of my posts in this thread regarding Elizabeth Brotherton? It seems as though a concerted smoke screen has been thrown up.

Regards,
MG

[Everybody Wang Chung]

It’s undisputed that Joseph married at least 11 (some scholars believe at least 14) women who were already married to other living men.

Yes, that is true. Are you too evading the actual substance of my posts in this thread regarding Elizabeth Brotherton? It seems as though a concerted smoke screen has been thrown up.

What is the actual substance of your post regarding Elizabeth Brotherton? Let me know and I'll answer the question. I must admit, I skip over the vast majority of your "posts."

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Yes, that is true. Are you too evading the actual substance of my posts in this thread regarding Elizabeth Brotherton? It seems as though a concerted smoke screen has been thrown up.

What is the actual substance of your post regarding Elizabeth Brotherton? Let me know and I'll answer the question. I must admit, I skip over the vast majority of your "posts."

Bump for Fibber.

[MG 2.0]

Yes, that is true. Are you too evading the actual substance of my posts in this thread regarding Elizabeth Brotherton? It seems as though a concerted smoke screen has been thrown up.

What is the actual substance of your post regarding Elizabeth Brotherton? Let me know and I'll answer the question. I must admit, I skip over the vast majority of your "posts."

Epilogue: "Brotherton eventually returned to England, where she died in 1864. But on August 1, 1870, in Salt Lake City, Brigham Young achieved his romantic pursuit when he had Brotherton sealed to him for eternity. Her sister, Elizabeth Brotherton Pratt, plural wife of Apostle Parley Pratt, acted as proxy for the deceased."

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_ ... rotherton/

What's interesting is that Elizabeth had a much different view of things that her sister.

30 years of my life I have been a member. I have been in peril by sea and by land and among false brethren, who denied the truth after receiving it And in affliction often, but out of them all the Lord has delivered me, I can truthfully say there has been no principle advanced by the leaders of this Church that I have ever doubted for one moment.
https://jared.pratt-family.org/parley_f ... raphy.html

When quite young I often regretted that I had not lived in the days of our Savior and His Apostles and as I pondered over these things I became dissatisfied with that faith and mode of baptism. This caused my parents much uneasiness. I often went in private and prayed to the Lord to direct me aright and I always felt comforted.

I continued to pray and waited for several years believing that in time I should be directed aright. In the year 1840 a friend handed me a Pamphlet published by the Latter-day Saints which told of a Prophet being raised up and of angels appearing that the true gospel was restored in the fullness with all its gifts and blessings. I investigated those principles and became convinced of the truth so I found the “Pearl of Great Price.” A number of the Twelve Apostles were on a mission to England at the time and many received the truth through their teaching.
https://jared.pratt-family.org/parley_f ... raphy.html

She was the plural wife of Parley P. Pratt.

It might be worth remembering that these sealings weren’t just about marriage—they were about building a celestial family. Joseph Smith taught that the righteous would be sealed into an eternal network of divine relationships.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... g?lang=eng

Why is it that two sisters could see the gospel of Jesus Christ with such different eyes?

One might ask whether the following scripture from Matthew is applicable in this instance and others like it.

Chapter 7
24 “So then, anyone who hears these words of mine and obeys them is like a wise man who built his house on rock. 25 The rain poured down, the rivers flooded over, and the wind blew hard against that house. But it did not fall, because it was built on rock.

26 “But anyone who hears these words of mine and does not obey them is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain poured down, the rivers flooded over, the wind blew hard against that house, and it fell. And what a terrible fall that was!”

I went back and brushed up on my reading. It's been years since I looked at Nauvoo polygamy and the relationship between John C. Bennett and Joseph Smith. The brothels. The Higbees. Martha Brotherton and others that submitted affidavits to Bennett that ended up in his book. Martha along with some others accused JCB of basically seducing women. Later Bennett tried to pawn off his guilt onto Joseph Smith to try and take him down because Joseph had essentially lost patience with him and canned him taking away his positions of influence and authority. The thing I haven't figured out and maybe someone can help me, is why did Martha give Bennett what he asked for when Martha had joined in with others accusing him of womanizing and doing the dirty deeds he did? It doesn't seem to make sense on some level. It could be that I'm REALLY rusty on what I'd read a long time ago and there are some missing pieces there somewhere.

There isn't any direct connection with Bennett and Brotherton as far as I know as far as her being one of his brothel or spiritual wives there in Nauvoo. Some have said that since she apparently was unemployed, she was involved in some shady stuff along with Bennett, but I haven't seen any hard evidence. I don't know what Brian Hales might have written in this regard except for the fact that he mentions Bennett's unreliability as a source and his tendency to distort or manipulate the facts for his purposes.

So, things seem to be a little fuzzy. I can't figure out why Martha would have willingly given Bennett her affidavit knowing that he was a scoundrel and would most likely manipulate what she said in some form or fashion. And he had it in for Joseph Smith. It seems rather shady.

I may have misspoke when I literally called her a "disciple" of Bennett but I do question whether or not he had some kind of undue influence over her for some reason or another. But I don't have any proof, just conjecture, on that point.

It may. She may have been the only one in her family, including Martha, that deeply believed in its spiritual principles and teachings. Again, I will link to this:

https://jared.pratt-family.org/parley_f ... raphy.html

An interesting fact:

Martha Brotherton gave her affidavit after having left Nauvoo with her family. What kind of influences acted upon her are undetermined through the haze of history and documentation. What we do know is that Joseph in other situations did not apply undue pressure upon women to marry him.

Different strokes for different folks, it seems. The same thing is true today.

If you’ve read the information I’ve posted it seems to portray a woman (Elizabeth) who was truly converted to the gospel and the truth she saw in it…rather than any one man. She remained steadfast in her testimony at the expense of alienating her sister and her family. When she pointed the finger at Martha she would have known that was the end of her sisterly relationship. Wouldn’t you think that this must have torn her apart? ?

It makes one at least suspicious of the relationship Martha had with the scoundrel named John C. Bennett.

There are some missing parts because of cut and pasting. Did my best!

A lot of reading, I know. Apparently, you have missed out on the conversation. This will help you get up to speed without having to worry your poor little head about reading the whole thread. To be fair, there have been other folks who have made comments...but nothing substantial in regard to what I have presented in relating to Elizabeth Brotherton. I find it interesting that when alternate views are presented there sure is a lot of wiggling around and misdirection.

Do you have something worth contributing besides name calling?

Regards,
MG