The presentation of Joseph Smith earnest self expression feels like arm twisting,, here you must believe these tales or be a bad person in spiritual darkness...
I don't, and I would think other educated members of the LDS Church also don't, believe that people are "bad" or in "spiritual darkness" because they don't believe in the Joseph Smith story. Recently I mentioned Ross Douthat who wrote the book called, "Believe". He as a matter of fact in his book gives his opinion that Joseph Smith was more or less a con man. Does that mean that he (Douthat) is running around in spiritual darkness? I don't think so. Nor many others like him.
Believe it or not, I think prayer...as I've mentioned in this thread recently...can take people to different places on their spiritual journeys. That being said, I also think that prayer can lead people to the LDS Church when they are ready and willing. But that doesn't discount or negate the journeys of millions and millions of people across the planet who are seekers and trying to develop a connection/relationship with the divine.
Can people learn, grow, and discover without prayer? Sure. But I do think that prayer to the creator of the universe opens up possibilities that can be had in no other way as God reveals Himself in one form/fashion or another to those that seek Him.
I don't know that I would say that ex-Mos sit down and "criticize" the beliefs of others. What they do is point out factual/logical inaccuracies of Mormon claims and let others recognize...or not...the problems, as they (ex-Mos) see it, as it is understood by them from independent research.
Ex-Mos do not "lead people away" from their Mormon religious beliefs. Newly minted ex-Mos become enlightened that the Mormon "fullness of the Gospel" has been misleading, through their own search for truth as they listen, study, and do their own thinking.
MG 2.0 makes it sound as though Mormons have not been prodded into the chute of believing Mormon claims.
You might give ex-Mos some credit.
Why would ex-Mos feel guilty for pointing out the factual and logical fallacies of Mormon claims?
Any particular reason you left out "prayer"?
Regards,
MG
Oh, please put me back on 'blocked' (even if you never had me there).
"There will come a time when the rich own all the media, and it will be impossible for the public to make an informed opinion." Albert Einstein, ~1949 "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." Voltaire
Yeah, he copied almost everything I said through the lens of a non-believing materialist. I suppose that's why he left out ONE WORD that I think might have meaning.
The word "prayer".
I don't necessarily fault him for that because I'm guessing that in his...your...worldview, prayer isn't part of the 'learning process'.
That's an important consideration in looking at the 'meat' of what he said and what I said originally.
Regards,
MG
Prayer? Ha!
"There will come a time when the rich own all the media, and it will be impossible for the public to make an informed opinion." Albert Einstein, ~1949 "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." Voltaire
The presentation of Joseph Smith earnest self expression feels like arm twisting,, here you must believe these tales or be a bad person in spiritual darkness...
I don't, and I would think other educated members of the LDS Church also don't, believe that people are "bad" or in "spiritual darkness" because they don't believe in the Joseph Smith story. Recently I mentioned Ross Douthat who wrote the book called, "Believe". He as a matter of fact in his book gives his opinion that Joseph Smith was more or less a con man. Does that mean that he (Douthat) is running around in spiritual darkness? I don't think so. Nor many others like him.
I don’t think Huck was saying you view non-believers as “bad.” He seemed to be talking about what Joseph himself said. Joseph repeatedly framed revelations in very binary terms—believe what he says or fall into deception, pride, and error. I read Huck’s post as pointing to that type of “arm-twisting.” And if he wasn’t saying that, I will.
It feels like that pressure associated with the historical record is being overlooked here. So it’s less about whether or not Ross Douthat is “in darkness” and more about acknowledging the way that Joseph himself presented.
Believe it or not, I think prayer...as I've mentioned in this thread recently...can take people to different places on their spiritual journeys. That being said, I also think that prayer can lead people to the LDS Church when they are ready and willing. But that doesn't discount or negate the journeys of millions and millions of people across the planet who are seekers and trying to develop a connection/relationship with the divine.
Can people learn, grow, and discover without prayer? Sure. But I do think that prayer to the creator of the universe opens up possibilities that can be had in no other way as God reveals Himself in one form/fashion or another to those that seek Him.
Knock and ye shall receive and all that.
Regards,
MG
There is a possibility that your comment doesn’t quite address: prayer can produce opposing convictions with the same sense of certainty.
Some pray and feel led into the Church, some pray and feel led out, and others end up—like me—with a symbolic reading.
So the question isn’t whether prayer opens possibilities, but whether those possibilities are allowed to include conclusions that differ from an institutional one. My experience says they do.
Yeah, he copied almost everything I said through the lens of a non-believing materialist. I suppose that's why he left out ONE WORD that I think might have meaning.
The word "prayer".
I don't necessarily fault him for that because I'm guessing that in his...your...worldview, prayer isn't part of the 'learning process'.
That's an important consideration in looking at the 'meat' of what he said and what I said originally.
Regards,
MG
LOL. You might want to look up to catch a glimpse of the point as it sails over your head.
he/him
“I prefer peace. But if trouble must come, let it come in my time so that my children can live in peace.” — Thomas Paine
Yeah, he copied almost everything I said through the lens of a non-believing materialist. I suppose that's why he left out ONE WORD that I think might have meaning.
The word "prayer".
I don't necessarily fault him for that because I'm guessing that in his...your...worldview, prayer isn't part of the 'learning process'.
That's an important consideration in looking at the 'meat' of what he said and what I said originally.
Regards,
MG
LOL. You might want to look up to catch a glimpse of the point as it sails over your head.
You know me, Res Ipsa, never able to quite keep up with you. LOL. Wait! Looking up. Nothing in view. I guess that wraps it up.
