You sound like a fundamentalist. That can get you into trouble. From reading your posts I would think that you would be a more flexible person in your views towards scriptural exegesis and interpretation.
You can believe whatever you want. But I see little value in pretending Jesus taught things that he didn't teach.
by the way, Noah was following the commands of Jehovah. Preparedness (was he over prepared?) saved him and his family. If Jesus was teaching preparedness way back then...and folks called Noah a crackpot...one might think there might be those who, today, might have similar viewpoints as they criticize and find fault with the brethren...and by association...the business managers for the church.
Yes, the fictional character Noah was following the commands of the fictional Jehovah. But Jesus--the apocalyptic preacher whose life is the basis of the gospel stories--was not part of that story.
and take advantage of sincere people in truly repugnant ways. It is not a moral or ethical position to take.
I don't think if you were to publish General Authority salaries, mission president salaries, the church's financial worth, amount it spends in fast offering and humanitarian offerings versus what they take in... none of that would matter to 98% of all active Mormons. The church is not taking advantage of anyone. If you don't believe this is where you should put your money you don't have to pay. I didn't pay for several years. I wasn't temple worthy but I still went to church, still served in a calling, my kids still went to nursery. Tithing and fast offering were sore issues on my mind when I didn't attend church and wasn't very happy about some of the doctrinal views being advanced. When I came back and started serving alongside some absolutely incredible people, I was happy to pay without a seconds thought and it was painless. These weren't unintelligent people who are numb to what that money could have brought them or who struggled to find the blessing that came from their sacrifice. These were people living in the spiritual world.
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
One could argue that it’s pretty difficult for an organization meeting the needs of those seeking spiritual preparedness to do so without having the temporal means to keep the organization alive.
Of course one could argue that. And it would be a great argument. But that doesn't mean it's what Jesus taught.
There are two ways of approaching the teachings of Jesus:
1- Some people look at what Jesus actually taught, as recorded in the Bible through the lens of textual criticism, and say that is what Jesus taught.
2- Others gather their own ideas of virtue and wisdom through various sources that aren't necessarily supported by the Bible, let alone the Gospels. They then decide that since that is what's virtuous and wise, it must be what Jesus taught, or at least what Jesus would approve of given present day circumstances.
When I said Jesus was against saving for a rainy day, I was approaching it through 1. It sounds like you were using approach two to channel Benjamin Franklin and ascribe his virtues to Jesus.
And even if people call it Franklin style 'saving for a rainy day', what the LDS church is doing is not that. I really doubt Franklin would have advocated for mindless hoarding.
I can't forget what an LDS leader said, in a conversation with an African leader several years back. The African leader said he hoped the LDS church could help with their goal of providing clean water for their people. The LDS leader equivocated, saying "We are not a wealthy people...."
1- Some people look at what Jesus actually taught, as recorded in the Bible through the lens of textual criticism, and say that is what Jesus taught.
2- Others gather their own ideas of virtue and wisdom through various sources that aren't necessarily supported by the Bible, let alone the Gospels. They then decide that since that is what's virtuous and wise, it must be what Jesus taught, or at least what Jesus would approve of given present day circumstances.
I'm fine with #2. It's part of having the spirit and continuing revelation. Just going by only what is explicitly stated in the gospels seems extraordinarily out of balance and even contradictory. at times.
I'm pretty confident exhausting $5 million worth of inheritance that has been hard won over many generations to dedicate the rest of your life to fighting malaria in Africa and leave yourself and any wife or children you might have penniless is extreme and clearly not what Jesus would want anymore than sacrificing your own son upon an altar.
The fact that the LDS church doesn't piss this tithing away and find itself $20 trillion in debt the way the US government does only adds to my testimony.
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
Ajax, you're a character, I'll give you that. The one time you stray to Terrestrial -- "Yes! The Church accumulated 150B dollars to hold over the heads of the poor! Now that's a worthy cause to donate to!"
Lost Gospel of Thomas 1:8 - And Jesus said, "what about the Pharisees? They did it too! Wherefore, we shall do it even more!"
And even if people call it Franklin style 'saving for a rainy day', what the LDS church is doing is not that. I really doubt Franklin would have advocated for mindless hoarding.
I can't forget what an LDS leader said, in a conversation with an African leader several years back. The African leader said he hoped the LDS church could help with their goal of providing clean water for their people. The LDS leader equivocated, saying "We are not a wealthy people...."
What utter bul1sh*t.
It was Elder Anderson in 2018.
Elder Andersen said the significance of the meeting with Vice President Mohadi was to “express to him our desire to help improve Zimbabwe.” He noted that Vice President Mohadi had made a specific request for support with the development of clean-water wells in more remote areas of Zimbabwe.
“We want to help in every way we can,” said Elder Andersen. “We are not a wealthy people but we are good people, and we share what we have,” he added.
Arguably the reddest red flag for members should be the admitted covering up of the hoard. We now know Hinckley deliberately lied about City Creek and how much money the Church had. We now know the cover up was continued in fear of members reaction to becoming aware of the hoard. If it was a perfectly justified rainy day fund why not report it at General Conference? The fact is, they knew they couldn't justify it and no President wanted to be the first to reveal it. It took a whistle blower to tell the truth, not the leadership of the Church.
What else are they lying about? How much more have they got hidden away?
1- Some people look at what Jesus actually taught, as recorded in the Bible through the lens of textual criticism, and say that is what Jesus taught.
2- Others gather their own ideas of virtue and wisdom through various sources that aren't necessarily supported by the Bible, let alone the Gospels. They then decide that since that is what's virtuous and wise, it must be what Jesus taught, or at least what Jesus would approve of given present day circumstances.
I'm fine with #2. It's part of having the spirit and continuing revelation. Just going by only what is explicitly stated in the gospels seems extraordinarily out of balance and even contradictory. at times.
I'm pretty confident exhausting $5 million worth of inheritance that has been hard won over many generations to dedicate the rest of your life to fighting malaria in Africa and leave yourself and any wife or children you might have penniless is extreme and clearly not what Jesus would want anymore than sacrificing your own son upon an altar.
The fact that the LDS church doesn't piss this tithing away and find itself $20 trillion in debt the way the US government does only adds to my testimony.
Obviously I’m coming from a different place, but I think the best approach is #1 because it is more honest. Of course you should keep in mind the obvious fact that there are true things that Jesus didn’t say and false things that he did.
Regarding my analogy, you completely missed the point. The son only needs a small fraction of the $5 million in order to pursue an incredibly selfless life’s mission, but the miserly father won’t even give a fraction of the $5 million as a one-time investment in this worthy cause. The $5 million isn’t being saved for a future good cause. It is being saved by a hoarder that likes having money for the simple sake of having it, worthwhile cause be damned.
Jesus said sell all your property, give all your money to the poor, and follow him. You can believe that is foolish advice, but don’t say Jesus opposed following the commandments he gave.
And even if people call it Franklin style 'saving for a rainy day', what the LDS church is doing is not that. I really doubt Franklin would have advocated for mindless hoarding.
I can't forget what an LDS leader said, in a conversation with an African leader several years back. The African leader said he hoped the LDS church could help with their goal of providing clean water for their people. The LDS leader equivocated, saying "We are not a wealthy people...."
What utter bul1sh*t.
It was Elder Anderson in 2018.
Elder Andersen said the significance of the meeting with Vice President Mohadi was to “express to him our desire to help improve Zimbabwe.” He noted that Vice President Mohadi had made a specific request for support with the development of clean-water wells in more remote areas of Zimbabwe.
“We want to help in every way we can,” said Elder Andersen. “We are not a wealthy people but we are good people, and we share what we have,” he added.
Arguably the reddest red flag for members should be the admitted covering up of the hoard. We now know Hinckley deliberately lied about City Creek and how much money the Church had. We now know the cover up was continued in fear of members reaction to becoming aware of the hoard. If it was a perfectly justified rainy day fund why not report it at General Conference? The fact is, they knew they couldn't justify it and no President wanted to be the first to reveal it. It took a whistle blower to tell the truth, not the leadership of the Church.
What else are they lying about? How much more have they got hidden away?
This is the key point to the discussion. They covered it up and did so because of fear tithing receipts would go down, in other words, for greedy reasons. It makes me even more irate at Nelson lying to poor Africans that paying tithing will somehow raise them out of poverty. These guys should be heavily audited so everyone can know how much has been hoarded, and then the church should become the poster child for changing the laws about religious organizations and taxing/disclosure laws.
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
These guys should be heavily audited so everyone can know how much has been hoarded...
Would you admit that “these guys” might know something you don’t about the future? If not, I can readily see your logic. But if they do, that makes all the difference. Most active and believing members sustain the brethren as prophets, seers, and revelators. That being the case, we trust that this rainy day fund has its purposes...and those purposes are not nefarious as you would suggest them to be.
Would that the good ol’ USofA had a significant surplus rather than debt. I’d feel much more comfortable about the future of the nation.
