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I'm sure there are those who have read this thread or perused the subject matter and will also pooh-pooh what I've proposed and simply dismiss it out of hand. Certainly the faithful are not going to like the contents of this thread and what it suggests with regard to Smith's creative abilities to invent stories by borrowing content from other sources to enrich his own recipe.

But just consider the odds from this perspective:

What are the odds that the casualties would exceed 1,000 in number? Smith had a choice of either going above a thousand or below. Therefore, from this perspective let's say the odds are 50/50. That sounds fair and reasonable while talking about large numbers of people who died in a local battle such as the one in this story.

Now, what are the odds that Smith would pick the number 5? There were precisely 999 options in which to choose from (000 - 999) and it just so happened that Smith chose 5, all by itself. So that means the odds were 1/999 that Smith would pick the number in question.

1) First, it's 50/50 or a coin toss.
2) Second, it's 1 out of 999 that Smith hits the bullseye.

You know, this thread wouldn't even exist had Smith picked another number other than "5" to plug into his dead Lamanite count. I wouldn't be bitching and accusing Joseph Smith for stealing numbers out of the Bible to spice up his Book of Mormon martyrdom scene. This thread wouldn't exist!

Look, if Smith had simply picked number 4 or 6 instead of 5 then this thread would not exist! If he had picked number 79 or 418 this thread would not exist! Had Smith picked any number from 6-999, this thread would not exist.

But as it was, Smith hit a bullseye and in this particular case a 5 in the eye is a bullseye!

Am I the only one on this stupid board that sees it for what it is? What's wrong with people around here? Are you all so damn stupid, or what?

Jesuz.

Dear friends and readers here at Discuss Mormonism:

I want to help you perceive with keen perception or rather remind you that when an author writes a book of a serious nature, the contents need to be perceived with a sense of believability. So, let's look again at the number selected for the poor dead Lamanites who were mowed down by the cruelty of Nephites who had no respect for life or the feelings of others. They hacked down unarmed people without regard. All 1005 songs souls!

But that number, the 1005 which Smith borrowed from Solomon with a song & dance *is* suspicious. What if he had chosen a different number? What might he NOT have chosen in order to keep his story straight-faced and credible?

Well, what if the number had been 999? How would that look? Wouldn't that give pause to the reader to question that number? What if the story had said this:

"And it came to pass they gathered up nine hundred and ninety nine bodies and then one more for a grand total of one thousand souls having been slain on the open field."

Using an exact 1,000 would look rather suspicious and cause the reader to question what was going on because it looks farfetched. What other number might look suspicious? How about:

1,111, would you believe that? Would it cause you to pause? It would seem rather unusual if it was an odd 1,111 or how about an even 2,222? Wouldn't that seem out place too?

The point is, a number needs to look believable in order to add credibility to the storyline. A random number is almost always the right number! Now, 1,005 is pretty much a random number except for the fact that Joseph Smith had previously discussed polygamy pertaining to David & Solomon earlier in the account and was well versed in biblical Song of Solomon as we see how horny Joseph applied a hint of that in a Letter to Emma.

Horny Joseph wrote:. . . of him who is altogether Lovely for a woman.

Song of Solomon 5:16

Polygamy, sex, horny Joseph, and 1005 Songs. It fits like a glove. Have I managed to convince anyone, yet?

And yes, let's not think that Emma was not open to Joseph's hot and heavy needs being well aware of his Song of Solomon pursuits. Surely, she lifted her dress from time time. All we need to do is turn to Emma's hymnbook in which she was commanded by God to compile for the singing pleasures of life -- and special thanks to the Song of Solomon and all the mysteries pertaining to the 1005 songs or dead Lamanites.

HYMN 35

HYMN 35 wrote:
4 Go pass throughout Europe, and Asia’s dark regions,
To China’s far shores, and to Afric’s black legions,
And proclaim to all people, as you’re passing by,
The fig-trees are leaving—the summer is nigh.

5 Go call on the great men of fame and of power,
The king on his throne, and the brave in his tower,
And inform them all kingdoms must fail but the one;
As clear as the moon and as fair as the sun.

Shulem wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:46 pm

The number "THOUSAND" in and of itself and combined with other numbers is recorded in the Book of Mormon multiple times. Here are the the actual numbers found in the entire Book of Mormon in the "thousands" including Solomon's number secreted by Joseph Smith:

1,000 "a thousand"
1,000(s) "thousands"
1,005 "a thousand and five"
2,000 "two thousand"
2,500 "two thousand five hundred"
3,043 "three thousand and forty-three"
3,500 "three thousand five hundred"
5,400 "five thousand and four hundred"
6,000 "six thousand"
8,000 "eight thousand"
10,000 "ten thousand"
10,000(s) "tens of thousands"
12,532 "twelve thousand five hundred thirty and two"
30,000 "thirty thousand"
42,000 "Forty and two thousand"
44,000 "forty and four thousand"

Oh how ever sloppy of me, dear Shulem, to have failed to notice something very particular in the above post! Of all the numbers at or above the value of 1,000 mentioned in the Book of Mormon, an ODD number is mentioned only TWICE, one of which is Solomon's biblical number for his songs, 1,005. It's a bullseye!

Think about that all ye number crunching freaks!

1 Kings 4:32 wrote:a thousand and five

Alma 24:22 wrote:a thousand and five

Both accounts are inseparably connected whereby Smith took and copied the number. We have the biblical number. And we have the Book of Mormon number in which Joseph Smith copied while mumbling out of his hat -- Oliver Cowdery wrote the number while Joseph continued the charade of channeling his translations through a pretended conduit leading to heaven.

Folks, I bear solemn testimony that this number proves Smith stole from the Bible. It's right there in front of your eyes and the apologists are faced with astronomical odds to show otherwise.

Thank you O crystal ball, for showing Shulem the way.

Amen.

Expressing a concrete number to identify an exact amount is different than expressing an abstract number to express a concept or an unknown quantity.

Take for example the mayor of Nauvoo (Joseph Smith) who complained about all the rotten things going on in the world that were apart from what was happening in his own town and used the term thousand to express a large quantity of an unknown amount:

Joseph Smith wrote:

• We have no disturbance or excitement among us, save what is made by the thousand and one idle rumors afloat in the country.

• President Joseph resumed. I give this as a sample of a thousand instances.

Thus, 1,001 rumors & 1,000 instances are abstract expressions, not fixed numbers, hence, it's unknown and isn't counted or expressed as a concrete number. On the contrary, the "1,005" dead Lamanites was an exact *BODY COUNT* compared to a thousand and one which is an expression for a thousand and one rumors or a thousand instances. Often during Book of Mormon wars there was no body count because there were so many slain and not enough time to count or bury the bodies and in those circumstances they "did not number them."

This thread is all about how and why Smith plagiarized "a thousand and five" from the Bible and secretly writing it into his Book of Mormon and doing so right under the very noses of everyone without being detected until June of 2021, here LIVE on Discuss Mormonism.

The Book of Alma was a hot bed for biblical plagiarism and it's no wonder that the 1,005 was lost in the midst of it all for so long until I exposed it here on Discuss Mormonism. Perhaps you're not convinced? Perhaps your head is still in the sand or maybe even your ass (metaphorically speaking). Really, I don't mean to be rude but what will it take to convince honest and intelligent people that Joseph Smith really did steal from the Bible and did so rather blatantly in some cases and in others very discreetly as demonstrated by the 1,005.

Alma's plagiarism of the New Testament is quite obvious to the casual observer and a few examples will help demonstrate that Smith stole from the New Testament just as easily as he stole Solomon's number 1,005 from the Old Testament. I believe it was David & Solomon that gave Smith the original idea to steal other men's wives and secret himself with a harem but that is entirely another story. Grindael, RIP.

The following example shows how Alma stole from the Bible. Bear in mind that the word "unquenchable" is not found in the Old Testament nor could it have been on the so-called brass plates. The word was ripped from the future New Testament as well as the entire phrase taken from John the Baptist.

Alma 5:52 wrote:

• the ax is laid at the root of the tree

• therefore every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit shall be hewn down and cast into the fire

• consumed, even an unquenchable fire

Matthew 3:10,12 wrote:

• the axe is laid unto the root of the trees

• therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire

• burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire

Here is a classic case of Book of Mormon BC doctrine assuming New Testament doctrine almost word verbatim. It's as simple as Tic-tac-toe and three in a row and you're busted:

Alma 5:15 wrote:

• this mortal body raised in immortality, and this corruption raised in incorruption

• to stand before God to be judged

• according to the deeds which have been done in the mortal body

1 Corinthians 15:53 & 2 Corinthians 5:10 wrote:

• this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality

• For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ

• the things done in his body, according to that he hath done

Don't touch it but it's okay to steal it!

Alma 5:57 wrote: come ye out from the wicked, and be ye separate, and touch not their unclean things

2 Corinthians 6:17 wrote: come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing

Alma depends on St John in order to preach his doctrine:

Alma 5:48 wrote:

• the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace, and mercy, and truth

• behold, it is he that cometh to take away the sins of the world

• believeth on his name

John 1:14,29,12 wrote:

• the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth

• Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world

• believe on his name

Alma rips the words right out of the mouth of Jesus like a thief in the night:

Alma 5:49 wrote: be born again

John 3:3 wrote:be born again

Hence,

be born again = be born again & 1,005 = 1005

Joseph Smith stole "be born again" for his Book of Mormon just as he stole Solomon's number of "1,005"

It's understandable how Joseph Smith was able to steal Solomon's number of 1,005 because he had access to that number from his Bible and was familiar with biblical history. On the other hand, a person living in the New World in A.D. 401 (Moroni) could not have had access to St. Paul's letters and teachings had by priests of the Old World Christian religion. Original teachings given by St Paul were not on Laban's brass plates. Inhabitants of the New World were separated by vast oceans and spoke and wrote a foreign language not known to those in Asia and the Middle East. Rest assured that St Paul's writings were never imported to America for Moroni to read or translate. The bottom line is that it wasn't the imaginary Mormon/Moroni who plagiarized the epistle of a Christian apostle! It was Joseph Smith that did it. Peculiar teachings in St Paul's epistles were new doctrines formed and created for the first time ever adding grace to the Christian religion. But Smith mumbled Paul's words as he knew them while his head was buried in a hat and was able to read a cheat note from within that hat. Oliver Cowdery, being the fool he was, wrote it all down as if it was the real deal. Ultimately there is no blame to pin on imaginary characters in the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith gets all the blame! The so-called power and influence of the Holy Ghost working through Joseph Smith while he pretended to translate via supernatural means was nothing more than the spirit of lying and plagiarization.

St Paul wrote:Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up

Moroni wrote:charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up

"a thousand and five"

St Paul wrote:seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth

Moroni wrote:seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth

"a thousand and five"

St Paul wrote:Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Moroni wrote:beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

"a thousand and five"

St Paul wrote:Charity never faileth

Moroni wrote:charity never faileth.

"a thousand and five"

St Paul wrote:and have not charity, I am nothing

Moroni wrote:have not charity, ye are nothing

"a thousand and five"

St Paul wrote:faith, hope, charity

Moroni wrote:faith, hope, and charity;

"a thousand and five"

Shulem wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:55 pm

Values expressed in the Book of Mormon in complete fractional form above 1,000 are limited to the following:

1,005
3,043
12,532

There are only *THREE* occurrences! Three instances within the "grand" scheme of things (pun intended) whereby they are not rounded numbers but *ALL* digits are included within the number.

So what are the odds that Solomon's number would be included within the Book of Mormon?

12,532 - 1,000 = 1 in 11,532

In my judgment, the number "a thousand and five" is one of the most peculiar numbers in the entire Bible. It represents something very sentimental and yet mysterious and is directly associated with the personal accomplishment of arguably the most famous king of the Bible. Indeed, "a thousand and five" is unique and I argue that it received special attention in Smith's Book of Mormon via plagiarism as it was secreted deep within the book hidden up for all this time under everyone's very nose. I'm afraid the Mormons have been blinded by the craftiness of Joseph. It was a crafty psychological trick he employed in order to give his book a special quality that would go unobserved by the conscious mind for 192 years -- duping everyone who read it!

But the cat is now out of the bag here on Discuss Mormonism!