Mormonism is not "Christianity"

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_Hoops
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _Hoops »


Yes indeed. One thing I find is those of the Christian flavor Hoops has is this. You can attend a Church and worship anywhere. Your denomination may not be Christian but you can be. However your Church, and for Hoops and others certainly Momronism, can really get in the way of you truly enjoying the fruits of your salvation and walk with God in this life.

Correct. I'll freely admit that "church" is a construct of man. I haven't found a better alternative, however. It is what it is, with many redeeming qualities. And many frustrating ones.
_Hoops
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _Hoops »

This is where I see the EV view of salvation start to resemble the Mormon view of salvation, Beastie.

EV's teach we are saved by a profession of faith in Jesus,
We do? No, we are saved by the power of Christ. Big difference.
but the caveat is we are not really saved (or we don't know if we are really saved) at that point.
Huh?
We have to wait until the end of our lives to see if we do something that takes us out of that saved status. In other words, our works come into play in making the final end-of-life determination as to whether we are saved.
No, we don't. I've never heard of this.
Mormons teach we must have faith in Jesus Christ to be saved, but in addition there must be "good works" we show forth afterward as a sign of our devotion and "saving faith." If good works do not follow, our faith in Jesus is not "saving." In other words, our works come into play in making the final end-of-life determination as to whether we are saved.
Hence, you are saved by your works. Which is not what we teach at all

(Some) EV's teach works are not necessary to salvation, but in the end there are some works (such as becoming a Mormon--or atheist) that, should a "saved" person commit, demonstrate they were never really saved in the first place.
I know that position is out there. But, frankly, I don't recall where. That's certainly not what I believe nor the position of any church I've attended in the last 20 years.
_Hoops
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _Hoops »

To me, the after-life and requirements of faith associated with Mormonism made more sense than EV. It seems sensible that it can't be just ALL based on belief, and none on works, because
Not to me. In fact, it seems a lot more sensible to me the other way around
that does seem suspicious.
Suspicious of what? whome?
As I said in an earlier response, that's really the "all is permitted" philosophy, not atheism. And if one accepts the role of Christ as Savior, it can't be ALL works, either. So a combination makes sense, and it seems logical that many believers throughout different sects have arrived as the same conclusion.
A combination make no sense at all to me. We are dealing with God's highest orderof creation - Man - and the highest order of existence - God. By equating works with the power of Christ in any way with our works, we are equating Man with God in terms of redemptive power. That makes no sense.
And it seemed even more sensible that, within the pool of works/faith, there is still differentiation of levels. Levels of belief. Levels of commitment.
Which is why there's no pool
_consiglieri
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _consiglieri »

thews wrote:I see you've resorted to using the old "tongue-in-cheek" opinion (as you recall) to downplay the teachings of the Mormon prophet of God. Is the following "tongue-in-cheek" as well?

http://www.mission.org/jesuspeople/mormatak.htm
Joseph Smith - "Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 327).


http://carm.org/joseph-smith-quotes
Joseph Smith said the Trinity is three gods.
"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370).


Was the Mormon prophet of God a comedian when it came to his teachings consiglieri?


The reason I think he was speaking tongue-in-cheek is because he said other things that were tongue-in-cheek in the same list of questions, such as the one about whether it is true he eloped with Emma, and he answered to ask his wife, because she was of age and can speak for herself.

I do not think Joseph was "kidding" when he said the two items you mentioned here, Thews.

And as for the one about why the Bible has errors in it, imagine my surprise when I was auditing a New Testament class by Bart Ehrman (courtesy of the Teaching Company), and heard Professor Ehrman say almost word for word the same thing.

It has taken modern scholarship a while to catch up with Joseph Smith on this, but there you have it.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_stemelbow
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _stemelbow »

Hey all, I realize I've been out for a few days, and in that time I missed quite a bit of back and forth on this topic. I still don't think I've seen one person attempt to clearly define what is Christian, other than those who are arguing Mormonism is Christian. I believe I had a couple of respondents who essentially said its too complex a term to define. But of course that gets us in all sorts of problems.

Anyway, I might have missed it. Can anyone point me to a post in which someone who is arguing Mormonism is not Christian has defined what the term means yet? 20 Pages without establishing a base from which is discuss would be pretty crazy, right?

So again, what's wrong with defining the term as one who believes in Jesus Christ, His teachings, and accepts Him as THE Savior? Is that not what is Christian? Why not? What caveats, what complexities do you intend to add to that definition?
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_consiglieri
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _consiglieri »

thews wrote:Be careful when you lump all supposed "EV's" into one bucket. There may be some "EV's" that claim to know they are supposedly "saved" and what constitutes being saved, but no man/woman knows this answer, as it's all a function of interpretation.


This part surprises me, Thews.

While I know there are different beliefs within the Evangelical Christian tent, I had always thought one of the uniting tenets was that one can be saved through a profession of Jesus as Savior, and one can "know" one is going to heaven after having made that profession.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_stemelbow
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _stemelbow »

Thews said:
Be careful when you lump all supposed "EV's" into one bucket. There may be some "EV's" that claim to know they are supposedly "saved" and what constitutes being saved, but no man/woman knows this answer, as it's all a function of interpretation.


Wow. I mean just wow. While arguing Mormonism is not Christian this comes out? What else is there to say?
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_maklelan
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _maklelan »

Aristotle Smith wrote:I would agree that Christian trinitarianism is not to be found in the Bible. Also, Mormon tri-theism is also not to be found in the Bible. As you point out the Bible makes many statements that at least appear to be contradictory, if not actually contradictory. Both orthodox Christians and Mormon attempt to solve this problem, but they go about it in fundamentally different ways.

The crux of the problem is that at the time of Jesus you have the following: 1) Jewish belief at that time was strictly monotheistic, and the Old Testament was read to be supporting strict monotheism and 2) The New Testament talks about Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as being diving. That's the conundrum you have to solve, after that most of the contradictions become details.


I disagree that there is a real conflict in these two propositions. First, Judaism in the Greco-Roman period can be called monotheistic, but some qualification is necessary. It was monotheistic in the sense that it accepted a single high god, but it acknowledged a coterie of other divine beings that were objects in the literature of prayer and sometimes even worship (proskynesis). The Son of Man figure from Daniel and Enoch, for instance, is said to receive worship several times in Enoch and even in the Old Greek of Daniel. Angels are prayed to frequently in apocalyptic literature, and early Jewish and Christian literature seems preoccupied in some places with stemming the tide of their worship. In Qumran's 4Q246 the "people of God" will receive worship from the nations (cf. Rev 3:9). All these things within Judaism really make Christ's divinity a non-issue in the earliest literature. It's not until John that we first see attempts to align his identity in some sense with God's, and that's the first place where the concern is with his relationship with God rather than his claims to be the Son of God. That he was simply considered divine would not have raised an eyebrow among the vast majority of Jews during this time period.

Aristotle Smith wrote:The orthodox strategy was to preserve as much of the Jewish belief as possible. Trinity attempts to preserve strict monotheism as much as possible so that Christians can still be strict monotheists. A lot of the technicalities of the trinity are attempts to shore up this goal. While there was a lot of bickering, the overarching goal for the orthodox Christians was to preserve that Jewish heritage. Much of the early Christian heresies (such as Arianism and gnosticism) were heresies precisly because they chose to deviate from that Jewish heritage.


I disagree. There were a number of issues addressed in the christological debates, but I don't see any of them as primarily or even partially concerned with preserving Jewish heritage. Pretty much all of them have only to do with Christ's nature and relationship to God and the Spirit, and as far as I am aware, they all arose within exclusively Christian circles and addressed exclusively Christian concerns. For instance, one of the earliest questions was whether or not Jesus was divine. The arguments involve the Gnostics, the Ebionites, the Arians, the Docetists, and others, and they always had to do with how Christ was described in the New Testament. Then you have the question of the person of Jesus. How did his divine nature and his human nature coexist? This revolves around philosophical questions first raised by Christian apologists in the second century. Another concern (the main one addressed at Nicea) addressed the generation of Jesus. Was he begotten somewhere in time, or was he "eternally begotten"? Again, this is a philosophical question that again arose from the speculation of apologists. There's also the Filioque question and the one of subordination.

Aristotle Smith wrote:The Mormon strategy is an attempt to get behind the Jewish belief to an earlier belief. This makes sense for Mormons because the Mosaic law is seen as a "lesser law" and the Jews a people with "lesser light and knowledge."


I don't think this is unique or original to Mormonism. This is actually a great description of the Patristic approach to Judaism. For the early Christians, Judaism was a carnal and base precursor to Christianity, which existed as a more pure and spiritual fulfillment of the latter. You find the seeds of this in Paul's notion that the law is a schoolmaster that leads to Christ, and that it is full of types and shadows that point to Christ. The Jews are those who do not yet see the true meaning of the scriptures. Justin Martyr, for instance, repeatedly scolded Trypho for not knowing the true meaning of his own scriptures. This is what gave rise to the prominence of allegory in Alexandrian exegesis (and even for a time in Antiochene exegesis). Origen said that the Old Testament was only old for those who read it literally. For Christians, who read it according to its true sense, it was another New Testament. He said that to read it without allegory was to make it a book too full of absurdities, contradictions, and matters too base for the spiritually minded. He also compared Judaism to the children's milk and the weak man's vegetables, and Christianity to the solid food of Christ's athletes. This perspective was standard fare from the second to the fourth centuries (too many people don't recognize Origen's deep and lasting contributions to Christian exegesis and theology).

Aristotle Smith wrote:Thus, the model for Mormons is to be pre-Mosaic. Mormons correctly picked up on a henotheism in the book of Genesis. This leads to tri-theism being o.k., because Mormons would see strict monotheism as not especially necessary to preserve. This is also what makes things like the King Follett discourse work, there can be as many gods as you want because strict monotheism is not an overarching goal.


It seems to me you're arguing that strict monotheism begins with Moses, and if that's the case then I have to emphatically disagree.

Aristotle Smith wrote:I also think this attempt to get back to the earliest forms of worship in the Bible is also what lead to polygamy, since Genesis tends to have the most positive outlook on polygamy in the entire Bible.


Interesting idea.
I like you Betty...

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_maklelan
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _maklelan »

thews wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:So I wonder now,it seems to me the this view by Thews is rather different than that of Hoops and a few others. Hoops does not seem to believe in eternal security and his comments about when one knows they are saved are not all that different than a Mormon might make. Where does that place his Christianity?

Jason, attempting to define my "place" in Christianity isn't necessary. It's defined by the doctrine I believe in, which is only the Bible to include the New Testament. If I also placed faith in the doctrine of Joseph Smith, I would define my belief as Mormon or LDS. I really don't get your point, but, like Liz, see your internal bias being projected in your argument. Without wishing to discuss supposed parallels of what the Book of Mormon contains (monotheism) vs. the Book of Abraham (henotheism), the doctrine is not Christian, and Christianity rejects Joseph Smith as a false prophet of God. If you wish to go to a Mormon church and reject some of its teachings while accepting other parts, that's your choice, but it doesn't justify a redefinition of the doctrine a "Christian" church is defined by, because Christian churches don't believe/use Mormon doctrine and reject Joseph Smith as a false prophet of God.


Would you mind giving me your basic definition of the word "Christian"?
I like you Betty...

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_maklelan
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _maklelan »

jon wrote:I think that Mormonism could have claim on being 'Christian' were it not for the fact that it went to great lengths to articulate to anyone who would listen that Mormons were 'different', 'peculiar', 'in the world but not of the world', 'the one true religion' etc etc etc.
Mormons believe that God told Joseph Smith that all the Christian churches at the time were 'an abomination'.

Now Mormonism wants to cuddle up and be Christian just like everyone else. Why? What's the problem? Money running out?


Mormonism never said it didn't want to be Christian. It has always claimed to be Christian. It has made a point of dissociating itself from mainstream Christianity, and sometimes the rhetoric makes it sound as if it is from Christianity in general, but it has always asserted that it is Christian.
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