beastie wrote:No, I don’t think Jersey Girl was tickling my ear, and certainly Hoops, with whom I’ve had contention on this thread, wasn’t tickling my ear. I think they were simply applying the basic foundation of Evangelical belief.
Fair enough. I believe I overreached here.
Now, I understand that not all EVs adhere to this belief. There are variances of beliefs within mainstream Christianity as a whole and even within the subset movements. But many EVs believe “once saved, always saved.” When Hoops stated that being a Christian means being forgiven of one’s past, present, and FUTURE sins, I suspected Hoops, like many other EVs, accepts “once saved, always saved.”
Without speaking to what Hoops may or may not believe regarding "once saved, always saved," I'll tell you how I regard the general appropriation of that belief in a large swath of American evangelicalism: as a bastardized corruption of the Reformation doctrine of the "perseverance of the Saints." OSAS has no logical consistency outside a thoroughgoing Calvinistic framework.
I’m not familiar enough with your specific beliefs to understand where you’re coming from in regards to whether or not I was saved. But if you accept what I’m saying as truthful, which you should, I would first guess you are saying that it is my actions subsequent to my accepting Jesus as my Savior which render me unsaved.
I was unclear. I do not believe that your actions subsequent to your reportedly accepting Jesus as your Savior rendered you unsaved.
Many EVs believe that no actions subsequent to accepting Jesus as one’s Savior can render the person unsaved.
This is a theological minefield, admittedly. When I say I assume you were not saved in 1995, I mean just that: I assume you were not saved in 1995 and never were. Not that you were and subsequently lost that status.
I don't believe that true Christians become atheists who repudiate their belief in Christ, and I believe
that for what I take to be more than one biblically-defensible reason. In that, yes, I am saying you were never a "true Christian," never truly saved.
The alternative strikes me as ridiculous on its face, doesn't it you (assuming my view?): you, a sound-minded, intelligent, self-professed atheist who has repudiated your belief in not only Jesus as your Savior, but in God his Father as well, is irrevocably heaven-bound because of some actions/thoughts/emotions/experiences/intentions (trying to be broad enough not to pigeonhole your personal history) you did and/or had at some point in the past.
The idea of losing one's (genuine) salvation is consistent with some forms of Protestant Christianity, e.g., traditional Arminianism (Roman Catholicism has another, different set of beliefs in this regard). Without getting into the logic of Arminianism vs. the logic of Calvinism, loss of genuine salvation is held to be consistent with a traditional Arminian hermeneutic of the relevant passages. I don't agree with them. I think they're wrong. But, it's not as if sincere-minded folks haven't rigorously thought through the issues and attempted to mount a scriptural defense of their position.
But, I'm not an Arminian. I'm a staunch Calvinist, i.e., I'm a thoroughgoing theological determinist. Specifically, for this discussion, I believe in the "perseverance of the Saints," i.e., Christians persevere to the end; you have renounced belief in the Christian God. An Arminian might say you lost your salvation; I would say you never had it. I've thought through the issue at length. I'd wager that most "OSAS" folks haven't thought through it at all.
I’ve talked to believers about this numerous times in the past. I think that part of the reasoning, from these past discussions, is that since I sincerely accepted Jesus as my Savior in 1995, while I may be confused and wandering right now, eventually I will find my way “home.”
But, woe unto me if, to adopt Jeremiah's words, I say to you, "'Peace, peace,' when there is no peace." I don't know your heart, but I'd rather be wrong a thousand times over than to tell you, "Beastie, you've been truly saved by the Christian God--even though you deny the very existence of the Christian God."
by the way: unbelief is not the unpardonable sin, beastie. You haven't committed the unpardonable sin. I don't know if it is even possible for you or I, at this historical remove from the earthly ministry of Jesus,
to commit the "unpardonable sin," but that's probably for another discussion.
But what I don’t understand is why you would say I wasn’t saved in 1995, unless you have some Calvinist tendencies, and believe God has predestined who will be saved, and if God hasn’t chosen you, then trying to get saved on your own won’t work.
I'm a 48-point Calvinist.
And I sincerely believe you should "[try] to get saved," but not on your own. I'm trying, too. Biblical Calvinists are compatibilists with regard to human agency and divine sovereignty. It's not that God does 50% and we do 50%. Each is 100% involved.
You say you accept my honesty, so there must be some reason you’re saying that, despite my sincerity and then-beliefs, I still wasn’t saved after accepting Jesus as my Savior. I’m hoping you’ll clarify.
Yes: you have repudiated your former acceptance of Jesus as your Savior. But Christians persevere in their belief in Jesus as their Savior. That doesn't mean I think you're lying to me.
I think that is language that you would accept, but you can correct me if I'm wrong.
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