KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

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_Darth J
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _Darth J »

William Schryver wrote:
ED Ashment wrote:
UNPUBLISHED PAPERS

1984. A Response to “Joseph Smith and the Book of Abraham,” by H. Donl Peterson. Mormon History Association Annual Meeting. Provo: Utah.

1980. “Joseph Smith’s Egyptian Papers.” SunStone Theological Symposium. Salt Lake City, Utah.

I hope this has been helpful. If you wish to communicate with me, you may do so through Kevin Graham.

Ed.

Ed,

Thanks for confirming that I have indeed read everything you have written concerning the Kirtland Egyptian Papers.


You read his unpublished papers, too? It sure is lucky that you were able to attend that Sunstone Symposium in 1980 while you were on your mission.
_beastie
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _beastie »

Darth J wrote:
You read his unpublished papers, too? It sure is lucky that you were able to attend that Sunstone Symposium in 1980 while you were on your mission.


Heh. Thanks for the link, which confirmed my suspicion (based on Will's earlier claim that he knew me at BYU - and if he did, I have zero memory of him, which may be part of the reason he treats females the way he does on this board) that Will's wife is close to my age. In fact, she's probably almost exactly my age. And that makes his earlier piggish (and incorrect) remarks about my age and "seeing my naked" not just pathetic because they reveal what a pig he is AND how he prefers to simply attack his critics personally, but also tragic because those same comments reveal what Will's poor wife has to endure.

At least she can look forward to the CK where she'll be "given" to a worthier man, like BY. Oh, wait, Will has had his calling and election made sure, so his piggish behavior won't hold him back. Poor girl, she really has no escape.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again: the easily apparent flaws in Will's theory, combined with his obnoxious and sometimes repulsive personality combine to demonstrate how truly desperate believers are when it comes to the Book of Abraham - they will cling even to Will. And, as far as I can see, the only thing Will's theory has going for it is that he is An Actor who is able to deliver his presentation with confidence and persuasion.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _beastie »

Kevin Graham wrote:Which means nothing, since all you do is assert your alleged superiority. We've seen how that has gotten you in trouble recently when Hauglid refused to stand by your bombastic certitude. You can't argue your points, nor will you. You will only assert them in lecture format, and then retreat to the hall corners afterwards, while critics are pointing out the holes in them. Then you'll spend thousands of words and dozens of hours typing on the internet, explaining on the forums why you don't have time nor inclination to respond to those making mincemeat of your ludicrous arguments.


Do you have a link to the Hauglid incident?

MM also summed up Will's style on Mad:

It would be helpful to your fans, William, if you sometimes included an actual argument to go along with your majestic proclamations.


http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/ ... 1208907464
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_sock puppet
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _sock puppet »

beastie wrote:
Kevin Graham wrote:Which means nothing, since all you do is assert your alleged superiority. We've seen how that has gotten you in trouble recently when Hauglid refused to stand by your bombastic certitude. You can't argue your points, nor will you. You will only assert them in lecture format, and then retreat to the hall corners afterwards, while critics are pointing out the holes in them. Then you'll spend thousands of words and dozens of hours typing on the internet, explaining on the forums why you don't have time nor inclination to respond to those making mincemeat of your ludicrous arguments.


Do you have a link to the Hauglid incident

here
_William Schryver
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _William Schryver »

DaftJ wrote:
You read his unpublished papers, too? It sure is lucky that you were able to attend that Sunstone Symposium in 1980 while you were on your mission.

That is actually not available in printed format, although I have considered making a transcription of it. However, being forced to listen to Ed's squeaky little mouse voice for that long again is probably too much for even an extraordinarily patient person like myself. Besides, he doesn't make any novel arguments in any of it; no text-critical analysis of anything. Just a handful of unsubstantiated assertions.

You see, I asked Graham for a list of Ashment's publications concerning the KEP. Graham, in his typically obtuse way, produces Ashment's entire CV--an oeuvre that contains precious little on the topic of the KEP--all of which I have read (or listened to) multiple times. To this day, I remain stunned that people have so uncritically accepted Ashment's unsupported assertions. But that is simply a measure of how indiscriminating exmormons can be so long as you're telling them things they want to hear.

As for the question of the bird wing/hand in facsimile 1, Non-Mormon Egyptologist Lanny Bell has already published a paper refuting Ashment's "findings" (read: unsupported assertions) in the matter. My recent examinations of the papyri confirm that what Ashment termed (If I recall correctly) "dapples" on the feathers of a wing are actually disconnected fragments of a single line of the finger of a hand. Metcalfe also picked up on Ashment's argument and has tried to defend it as well. In fact, if you take away the ideas Metcalfe picked up from Skousen and Ashment, he's left with pretty much nothing of his own.

Anyway, back to Ashment's CV: there is almost nothing in his publication history that treats upon the questions surrounding the Kirtland Egyptian Papers, and the little there is has, can, and will be shown to be incorrect. Ashment obviously never did any serious examination of the KEP. He was always focused on the papyri, and even in what ought to have been his strong suit, he makes silly, agenda-driven mistakes, like the bird wing/hand issue which I have already mentioned.

Finally, I can see that Ashment has been away from the fray for so long that he's not only unfamiliar with the current status of things, but he also manifests little interest in getting himself up to speed. I seriously doubt we'll see much more of him in the future, although I do know that someone at the highest levels of the MI should be contacting him this week.
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
_Runtu
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _Runtu »

William Schryver wrote:No, in fact I have expended very little time on any message board of late. And I'm down to my last five minutes of today's quota.

I have, however, seen enough to note the continuing evidence of your apostate malaise. No doubt you'll be a candidate for the dating game before too much longer.


Disappointing as it may be to some people, my marriage is in great shape. It does say a lot about such believers that they want other people and their families to suffer.

With that, it's time to get back to the apostate malaise.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _Kishkumen »

Willard Scribbler wrote:I seriously doubt we'll see much more of him in the future, although I do know that someone at the highest levels of the MI should be contacting him this week.


Whoever could this be that occupies the "highest levels" of the many-tiered Dante-esque heaven of the Neal Maxwell Institute? Will it be the sainted Neal himself, or one of his angelic messengers? Could it be... no....

Image

Will is loads of cheap entertainment. His Fustian bloviations and ridiculous hyperbole are always a source of laughter. I can't wait to see the serious side of Will in publication, since he promises his contribution there will be of quite a different character.

Image
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Darth J
_Emeritus
Posts: 13392
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _Darth J »

William Schryver wrote:
DaftJ wrote:
You read his unpublished papers, too? It sure is lucky that you were able to attend that Sunstone Symposium in 1980 while you were on your mission.

That is actually not available in printed format, although I have considered making a transcription of it. However, being forced to listen to Ed's squeaky little mouse voice for that long again is probably too much for even an extraordinarily patient person like myself. Besides, he doesn't make any novel arguments in any of it; no text-critical analysis of anything. Just a handful of unsubstantiated assertions.

You see, I asked Graham for a list of Ashment's publications concerning the KEP. Graham, in his typically obtuse way, produces Ashment's entire CV--an oeuvre that contains precious little on the topic of the KEP--all of which I have read (or listened to) multiple times. To this day, I remain stunned that people have so uncritically accepted Ashment's unsupported assertions. But that is simply a measure of how indiscriminating exmormons can be so long as you're telling them things they want to hear.

As for the question of the bird wing/hand in facsimile 1, Non-Mormon Egyptologist Lanny Bell has already published a paper refuting Ashment's "findings" (read: unsupported assertions) in the matter. My recent examinations of the papyri confirm that what Ashment termed (If I recall correctly) "dapples" on the feathers of a wing are actually disconnected fragments of a single line of the finger of a hand. Metcalfe also picked up on Ashment's argument and has tried to defend it as well. In fact, if you take away the ideas Metcalfe picked up from Skousen and Ashment, he's left with pretty much nothing of his own.

Anyway, back to Ashment's CV: there is almost nothing in his publication history that treats upon the questions surrounding the Kirtland Egyptian Papers, and the little there is has, can, and will be shown to be incorrect. Ashment obviously never did any serious examination of the KEP. He was always focused on the papyri, and even in what ought to have been his strong suit, he makes silly, agenda-driven mistakes, like the bird wing/hand issue which I have already mentioned.

Finally, I can see that Ashment has been away from the fray for so long that he's not only unfamiliar with the current status of things, but he also manifests little interest in getting himself up to speed. I seriously doubt we'll see much more of him in the future, although I do know that someone at the highest levels of the MI should be contacting him this week.


I see. So, much like "translate" and "Egyptian" being highly fluid words, we shouldn't assume that when you say, "I have indeed read everything you have written concerning the Kirtland Egyptian Papers," it means that you have read everything he has written concerning the KEP.

Mormon Apologetics Article of Faith #12:

The plain, obvious meaning of the words someone said are not a reliable indication of what they meant.

I'm so excited to be seeing a funny parody of my screen name in an academic journal explaining how I helped prove that the Book of Abraham is true!
_William Schryver
_Emeritus
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _William Schryver »

beastie wrote:Heh. Thanks for the link, which confirmed my suspicion (based on Will's earlier claim that he knew me at BYU - and if he did, I have zero memory of him, which may be part of the reason he treats females the way he does on this board) that Will's wife is close to my age. In fact, she's probably almost exactly my age. And that makes his earlier piggish (and incorrect) remarks about my age and "seeing my naked" (sic)not just pathetic because they reveal what a pig he is AND how he prefers to simply attack his critics personally, but also tragic because those same comments reveal what Will's poor wife has to endure.

At least she can look forward to the CK where she'll be "given" to a worthier man, like BY. Oh, wait, Will has had his calling and election made sure, so his piggish behavior won't hold him back. Poor girl, she really has no escape.

Oh, beastsheba, you really need to give up your roof-top fantasies. You're stuck where you are, and this is as good as it's ever going to get for you.

Furthermore, I've never expressed a desire to "see [your] naked". Nor do I have such a desire. Nor do I think there is enough tequila in Mexico to fill me with that desire. And it has nothing to do with your lack of physical beauty. I clearly recall acknowledging that you are a very attractive woman. On the outside. Just as is my beloved wife (who will turn 53 in a few weeks, making her probably about your age). In fact, I imagine the biggest difference between her and you is that her soul hasn't been permanently cankered by the rot of unrelinquished resentments.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again: the easily apparent flaws in Will's theory, combined with his obnoxious and sometimes repulsive personality combine to demonstrate how truly desperate believers are when it comes to the Book of Abraham - they will cling even to Will. And, as far as I can see, the only thing Will's theory has going for it is that he is An Actor who is able to deliver his presentation with confidence and persuasion.

You've long since made it quite apparent that you wouldn't know an "easily apparent flaw" if it bit you on your pretty little ...

At any rate, you have no idea of the wide-ranging appeal and acceptance of my findings. No idea. Just be certain of one thing: they won't disappear anytime soon. They possess explanatory power that stands on its own, notwithstanding the mindless opposition to them that goes on here in this insignificant little corner of cyberspace.
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
_Darth J
_Emeritus
Posts: 13392
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:16 am

Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _Darth J »

William Schryver wrote:this insignificant little corner of cyberspace.


From which I take my signature line both here and on MADB.
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