zerinus wrote: I consider none of that to be reliable first-hand information.
How about another faithful saint who later became a patriarch in the church? Would you consider him a reliable first-hand witness?
I do.
Benjamin Johnson wrote:In the course of that year, the Egyptian mummies were brought from Mr. Chandler, by whom they were received from Egypt. Great was our wonder in looking upon the bodies of those who, 4,000 years ago, were living princes and queens. And when the writings of Abraham upon papyrus, which accompanied them were taken from its ancient casket, it seemed marvelous indeed. And all rejoiced when the Prophet told us these writings would be translated, which are now, in part, in the Pearl of Great Price
zerinus wrote: I consider none of that to be reliable first-hand information.
How about more reliable first-hand testimony that Joseph Smith claimed he had a royal mummy?
From a man who had the opportunity to journey from England and visit Nauvoo. He personally saw the mummies and in 1893 he published his story in the LDS English Church periodical called the Millennial Star:
Robert Horn wrote:I've seen these records with my own eyes and handled them with these hands. Mother Lucy showed them to me. You know Joseph had purchased four mummies. They were one of the Egyptian Pharaohs, his wife, sister and daughter. I took hold of the breastbone of one of them. The records which I saw were some kind of parchment or papyrus, and it contained writing in red and black. Mother Lucy told me that one was the writings of Abraham and the other the writings of Joseph, who was sold in Egypt.
zerinus wrote:I have to take that against what Joseph Smith said in his Documentary History that he was not willing to identify the personality of the mummies. I don't have that book with me right now to be able to give a direct quote, but do recall that that is what he said. So where is that information you presented coming from? Is it hearsay, or what Joseph Smith actually said? Can those references be pinned down to what Joseph Smith actually said? When you have pinned it down, then I will accept it; otherwise it is nothing more than hearsay.
I've not disclosed all the testimonials, yet. There are more. But there is one in particular that will nail you up against the wall, zerinus. Are you ready to concede that faithful testimonies prove that Joseph Smith claimed one of his mummies was a king? Are you ready to take that big step?
If you can't trust Emma (one of his wives) and faithful members of the church, perhaps you will believe a signed statement from Joseph Smith bearing his signature written with his own hand.
Is that what it is going to take to convince you that a collaboration of evidence is how we reason our way to a logical conclusion?
We do know for a fact that a lot of misreporting was going on. See D&C 123 to see how the Church viewed it at the time.
We also know there was a lot of accurate reporting going on. It is that we are presenting to you. We have put away childish things and have moved into the grown up arena. We await patiently for you, child, to join in.
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Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
I'll keep ramming Facsimile No. 3 until you are sick to death of it.
I would rather see if he actually finds any evidence refuting you, but he won't because he can't and he knows it. It's why he ignores it and says child inanities such as "dumb comment," and some such.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
zerinus wrote: I consider none of that to be reliable first-hand information.
How about another faithful saint who later became a patriarch in the church? Would you consider him a reliable first-hand witness?
I do.
Benjamin Johnson wrote:In the course of that year, the Egyptian mummies were brought from Mr. Chandler, by whom they were received from Egypt. Great was our wonder in looking upon the bodies of those who, 4,000 years ago, were living princes and queens. And when the writings of Abraham upon papyrus, which accompanied them were taken from its ancient casket, it seemed marvelous indeed. And all rejoiced when the Prophet told us these writings would be translated, which are now, in part, in the Pearl of Great Price
Excellent! I have all this evidence in my paper as well. Zerinus wouldn't know I am quoting actual Mormons who testify Joseph Smith was a true prophet and HE is the one who told them their information because Zerinus thinks I wrote an anti-Mormon paper, the silly child.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
The logic against Zerinus' lack of engaging the evidence. From my paper. For the record, Matt Roper whom I am using is a faithful, temple going, tithe paying Mormon.
Benjamin F. Johnson in 1835 in his life review described “In looking upon the bodies of those who 4,000 years ago, were living princes and queens. And when the writings of Abraham upon papyrus, which accompanied them were taken from its ancient casket, it seemed marvelous indeed.”[34] We are clearly left with the impression that those writings of Abraham came from him in antiquity. Joseph Smith never corrected that impression if it was wrong. Wilford Woodruff in his journal commented “…the writings that was said to be written in Abraham’s day…”[35] It is obvious it was Joseph Smith saying this as he was one of those, among others he allowed, who constantly showed the papyri to any who called upon him to see the mummies and papyri. William Foote said Joseph Smith Sr., described to him the records as being “the writings of Abraham and Joseph.”[36] Obviously whoever was allowed or asked to show the relics were telling people what Joseph Smith had taught them, and there is no retracting, or correcting of what they were telling people about what the papyri were about. The entire stash of relics were the talk of the state, with all manner of people wanting to see them and hear about them.[37]
Endnotes Roper, Basic Historical Information, p. 13. Roper, Basic Historical Information, p. 15. Roper, Basic Historical Information, p. 16. This is easily seen in Joseph Smith’s own history as well as the Joseph Smith Papers, where all people, Mormon or not, are allowed to see the relics. Joseph Smith History, Period 1, Vol. 2, Deseret Book, 1978: 316, 322, 327, 329, 331, 334, 344, 364, 388, 390, 394, 396. In the Joseph Smith Papers, Journals, Vol 1, (1832-1839), Church Historian’s Press, 2008: 73, 76, 105, 109, 113, 120, 122, 123, 135, 147, 178, 180, 184, 186.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
reliable information doesn’t exist for it either way
It does. You're wrong, you just imagine you get to say what is reliable and what isn't, saving your testimony that way. A cheap and easy out. Not impressive at all. No analysis, debate or discussion, just dismissal. Dismissing evidence is not equal to refuting it. It is valid eyewitness testimony evidence.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
