Res Ipsa wrote:As to the whole "accusation" thing, Ron makes a nonsensical and bizarre argument about the meaning of the word "accusation." He claims that only an eyewitness to an event can make an "accusation." So, although he has been running around telling people that Mickelsen has abused his daughter and his ex-wife (no evidence there at all), he denies that he is accusing anyone. It's irrational.
You're describing autism.
Yeah, I don't know, Rosebud. You see the same thing in the Sovereign Citizens movement. I've seen some in litigation. Reading their briefs is excruciating. I think of it as hyper motivated reasoning.
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
Calling Ron a "high functioning autistic" is about as disingenuous as the other stabs and attacks made against him by those seeking to destroy his credibility.
He does not present himself as autistic in any sense of the word.
Some of you people are sure intent on character assassination.
If you can't get at him one way, you attempt to another. Very disingenuous.
At least he is forthright and emboldened to present his story. Glad there are people who appreciate what he has to say without shredding it to pieces. You just want to attack anything and everything he says.
If his family members really wanted to clear the air (I'm talking ex family members,) don't you really believe they would've by now?
What is it they're afraid of but the truth? They are the liars and detractors, manipulators and pedophiles in that sick and twisted bunch.
It isn't the Mormon church that is watching anyone's back but its own. It is the Mormon church that went to great lengths to keep in the dark what Ron has brought to light.
Only when it can no longer feign innocence does it admit when it's lied and covered up its past. The saga with Ron Karren and children is far from over. It is just beginning.
AmyJo wrote:Calling Ron a "high functioning autistic" is about as disingenuous as the other stabs and attacks made against him by those seeking to destroy his credibility.
He does not present himself as autistic in any sense of the word.
Some of you people are sure intent on character assassination.
If you can't get at him one way, you attempt to another. Very disingenuous.
At least he is forthright and emboldened to present his story. Glad there are people who appreciate what he has to say without shredding it to pieces. You just want to attack anything and everything he says.
If his family members really wanted to clear the air (I'm talking ex family members,) don't you really believe they would've by now?
What is it they're afraid of but the truth? They are the liars and detractors, manipulators and pedophiles in that sick and twisted bunch.
It isn't the Mormon church that is watching anyone's back but its own. It is the Mormon church that went to great lengths to keep in the dark what Ron has brought to light.
Only when it can no longer feign innocence does it admit when it's lied and covered up its past. The saga with Ron Karren and children is far from over. It is just beginning.
AmyJo, have I correctly cited the evidence around the incident with the daughter's residence? Do you have even a single scrap of evidence that Jean's attorney knew in advance that Jean was going to drop the daughter off at Ron's beforehand, let alone orchestrated it?
I have no idea whether Karren is anywhere on the autistic spectrum. But I'm kind of shocked that you would consider describing someone as "high functioning autistic" as "character assassination." Why do you think that having autism means that someone is of poor character?
I'm not intent on "shredding Ron to pieces." I am intent on comparing Ron's story with the actual evidence. When I do that, Ron shreds the reliability of his story to pieces.
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
I'm not intent on "shredding Ron to pieces." I am intent on comparing Ron's story with the actual evidence. When I do that, Ron shreds the reliability of his story to pieces.
I think Ron has demonstrated that a number of the accusations made against him were not true. The tape recording of Jean and her son indicate that to be the case. Late here but I can work through a couple of specific examples.
Remember that the oldest boy actually walked in on the meeting where the affidavits were being organised, so he knew something was going on, even if not much on the specifics. He got full access to them when he was 18. If I had walked in on a meeting designed to discredit my dad, I would sure as hell be interested in what was being said.
On whether the children know and approve of this release of material, I asked Ron and he has given me permission to quote him.
Yes. I had almost given up on this. It was the kids that prodded me to try one more time. I've got a wonderful, relaxing life, and this subject matter really detracts from it. But it needs to be stopped. The corrupt system and corrupt religions need, at minimum, to lose their tax-exempt status; and maximum, be shut down if they continue engaging pedophilia and its cover-up. This is the only reason I have temporarily stepped back in this life-disturbing muck.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
Mary, I know you're in the UK. Don't stay up late on my account. :-)
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Res Ipsa wrote:Yeah, I don't know, Rosebud. You see the same thing in the Sovereign Citizens movement. I've seen some in litigation. Reading their briefs is excruciating. I think of it as hyper motivated reasoning.
Possible. And people with autism are vulnerable to hyper-motivated reasoning because they are stuck in their own heads with less access to outside information than the rest of us.
The question is whether or not it accompanies the rest of the symptoms of autism. If it does, and he had the childhood manifestations of the disorder, it's likely a match and this would make a lot more sense to me. If not, then I'm lost besides that this guy is unwell.
I mean...... people with high-functioning autism are often unwell because the disability affects all of their social interactions and is very emotionally and intellectually taxing as they have a hard time putting information and other people's emotions together accurately, but, for me, at least it's an unwell I understand and that I can empathize with (despite the fact that the associated behaviors are often very difficult to like and are sometimes plain nasty).
If Micklesen is not innocent and has confessed privately whilst playing down details of any inappropriate conduct it may be that the brethren wished to deal with it quietly *in house* - that makes sense. There are parallels within Catholicism.
As the film Spotlight shows, dealing with these matters as a private matter is an enabler. These situations must be dealt with as a criminal matter. It's a societal thing. Rape, murder - are criminal matters.
The stories I have been getting from members who have experienced this indicate that there is still a belief amongst many leaders right up the ladder of authority that these matters can be dealt with in house. That has to change.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
Mary wrote:If Micklesen is not innocent and has confessed privately whilst playing down details of any inappropriate conduct it may be that the brethren wished to deal with it quietly *in house* - that makes sense. There are parallels within Catholicism.
As the film Spotlight shows, dealing with these matters as a private matter is an enabler. These situations must be dealt with as a criminal matter. It's a societal thing. Rape, murder - are criminal matters.
The stories I have been getting from members who have experienced this indicate that there is still a belief amongst many leaders right up the ladder of authority that these matters can be dealt with in house. That has to change.
Well the only way it changed in the Catholic church was because of public pressure and multi-million dollar lawsuits that made the church own up to its responsibility in enabling the pedophilia that had gone on for centuries. The Mormon church echelon of power hasn't been around nearly so long, but the way they dig their heels in and by keeping their heads buried in proverbial sand they figure their own plebs aren't going to question their authority. So just keep on with the smear tactics to those who challenge the status quo like the Ronald Karren's until they can no longer continue to shirk owning up to the facts.
I know how difficult it can be to be heard going up against the church with any complaints of egregious conduct by its leaders at any level of the organization. It's mired in its own bureaucracy.
It turns a blind eye to the sins of the Fathers, while shunning and shaming the LGBT community or others for speaking out against bigotry.
Mary wrote:If Micklesen is not innocent and has confessed privately whilst playing down details of any inappropriate conduct it may be that the brethren wished to deal with it quietly *in house* - that makes sense. There are parallels within Catholicism.
As the film Spotlight shows, dealing with these matters as a private matter is an enabler. These situations must be dealt with as a criminal matter. It's a societal thing. Rape, murder - are criminal matters.
The stories I have been getting from members who have experienced this indicate that there is still a belief amongst many leaders right up the ladder of authority that these matters can be dealt with in house. That has to change.
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It is certainly possible under the facts we have that the daughter was molested by her father, that he reported it to one of the head 15, and that they dealt with it quietly in house. If that's what happened, then there should be a civil and/or criminal lawsuit.
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
