MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

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_TAK
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _TAK »

DCP
Whenever I read a book on Ottoman Turkey, the rise of the Bolsheviks, the life of Thomas Jefferson, the expedition of Lewis and Clark, the Isma‘ili Shi‘ites of India, or the life of Adolf Hitler, I'm almost certainly reading a book drawing on library and archival resources that I will never see.


Specious argument ..
Those that are experts in those fields can and have accessed the information and can refute or agree with the author’s premises..

No such verification is possible in this case as the facts are controlled by the Church..
God has the right to create and to destroy, to make like and to kill. He can delegate this authority if he wishes to. I know that can be scary. Deal with it.
Nehor.. Nov 08, 2010


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_Doctor Steuss
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Doctor Steuss »

Trevor wrote:Yes, as I understood to be the case. I was simply pointing out that the cumulative effect, whether intentional or not, at least on this reader, was a decidedly negative impression of Lee. It could be that this is completely deserved and historically accurate. Unfortunately, at present, the responsibility of Haight takes the backseat. Maybe the second volume will change this.

Although I haven't finished the book (on page 115), Katherine the Great commented on MA&D that:

The more I read this book, the angrier I am becoming with Isaac Haight. It seems clear that the attack was his idea, he was geared up for "action" that was not forthcoming from any actual military attack, he was increasingly annoyed at emigrant trains coming through and grazing their cattle and making snide comments about their ugly town and crude remarks to and about their women. He had some legitimate, human complaints, but absolutely nothing to justify the massacre. He used John D. Lee (the man who had saved his life the previous year) as his own pawn to execute the attack and then he could claim he was innocent because he wasn't present for the attack. John D. Lee, of course, was equally guilty, but I think Haight should have been executed beside Lee. The only two people who never waivered in their execution of the attack were Haight and Lee. Everyone else seemed to have had second thoughts along the way.


However, this is a comment I made on August 13th (on MA&D) – I was probably only to about page 56-or-so at the time:
In the pages I just read 5 minutes ago, I felt that the authors may have been attempting to vilify Lee preemptively (by speaking of some tribunals he had to attend)


I don't know if I'll encounter more as I read on (I assume I will), but to this point I feel that an unequal amount of ink has been used at demonizing Lee in comparison to Haight (which thus far has been seemingly sparse, if not nearly nonexistent).

I should probably refrain from commenting further until I’ve completed the book. But as things stand at this point (from my limited reading), I tend to agree with you.

-Stu
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Trevor wrote:
Daniel Peterson wrote:When one or two internet critics post their opinions, the thinking has been done. The question is closed.


Well, I would hope that my status as "critic" does not prejudice people against my reading completely.

You pinpointed one of my biggest griefs with the book thus far, so you can't be all bad.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

Calling attention to a potential conflict of interest is entirely legitimate. But to go on and on and on and on, absent even so much as a glance at the book, about the potential, even likely, conflict of interest involved in the book’s production begins to look like an attempt to poison the well.


The only reason I’ve gone on and on about it is due to your approach to this thread. For another example, see the bit about whether or not you claimed that I had said the book was dishonest and a distortion. How many posts, back and forth, went on about that point? And why? Because of how you reacted to it all – you first quibbled about the exact words I used, then you denied having said it at all, intermingling inane comments throughout. You seem to think that you have the right to quibble, deny, and make inane comments without having to endure the responses those very posts invite. This isn’t FAIR, and it’s not MAD. You make a bed here, you get to lie in it. This issue would have been settled long ago, had you not quibbled, denied, parsed, and made innumerous inane comments about how ridiculous the entire point was (in between claiming I made no point at all!).

That there is a potential conflict of interest whenever employees or advocates of a given institution write a book about a negative or potentially negative subject connected with that institution is a given. It's obvious. The only real way to determine whether that potential conflict of interest has substantially marred the book, however, is to carefully inspect the book.


This is exactly the type of quibbling that has ensured this thread has lasted as long as it has. There is not a potential conflict of interest. There is a present and existing conflict of interest. The only real way to determine whether that present, existing conflict of interest has marred the book is to carefully inspect the book and rely on qualified researches to inspect the heretofore inaccessible primary documents.


Everybody involved with the production of Massacre at Mountain Meadows appears to have said, many times over several years, in print, in public lectures, and in private conversations, that every effort has been made to tell the story fully and honestly. Can that assertion be tested? To a large extent, yes. And the best way to test it is by careful inspection of the book.


The best way to test it is by careful inspection of the book along with careful inspection of the heretofore inaccessible primary documents, by qualified researchers.

I know you’re intelligent enough to recognize the validity of this point. It’s just inconvenient.

Look again at what wiki stated about conflict of interest:

A conflict of interest is a situation in which someone in a position of trust, such as a lawyer, insurance adjuster, a politician, executive or director of a corporation or a medical research scientist or physician, has competing professional or personal interests. Such competing interests can make it difficult to fulfill his or her duties impartially. A conflict of interest exists even if no unethical or improper act results from it. A conflict of interest can create an appearance of impropriety that can undermine confidence in the person, profession, or court system. A conflict can be mitigated by third party verification or third party evaluation noted below—but it still exists.


Your quotation from Elder Packer and, even more so, your quotation from Elder Oaks fall far short of establishing an official Church policy of suppressing relevant historical facts and falsifying the historical record. Yet you seem to believe that they demonstrate such a policy. An excellent test of your belief, in this case, is to carefully inspect Massacre at Mountain Meadows.


I said nothing about an “official Church policy”. This is how I referred to this issue:

Beastie, page 5
Now, let’s look at the simple facts. This book was funded by the LDS church, so in a very realistic fashion the authors were “employed by the church”. The church has a clear agenda – their mission to bring people to salvation. One of the most influential leaders of the LDS church has made clear how he believes church history should be handled.


Now, I understand you insist that I have egregiously misinterpreted Packer’s comments. I imagine that my interpretation of his remarks is extremely common, for such an egregious misinterpretation. I am quite comfortable standing by my interpretation of his remarks, which is that he thinks some historical truths are not useful, and in particular, he does not want historical truths to be shared that could damage the faith. He’s not referring to what so-and-so had for breakfast. He’s referring to facts that cause people to doubt the truthfulness of the church.

Everybody involved with the production of Massacre at Mountain Meadows appears to have said, many times over several years, in print, in public lectures, and in private conversations, that the leadership of the Church, from President Hinckley on down, has encouraged, even demanded, that the full story be told, accurately and without spin. Can that assertion be tested? Not directly, and not fully. But, indirectly, its plausibility can be examined. And the best way to do so is by careful inspection of the book.


Along with a careful inspection of the original sources by other qualified researchers.

[quote] Raising the issue of a possible record of institutional dishonesty is not out of line, provided that one has provided substantial evidence for the charge. (I don’t believe that you’ve offered any.) Otherwise, doing so may be merely slanderous. But, even if such substantial evidence has been offered, to go on and on and on and on, absent even so much as a glance at the book itself, regarding the possible marring of the book by possible institutional dishonesty begins to look like an attempt to poison the well.[/qutoe]

This is laughable. Slanderous???? Once again, I said nothing about “institutional dishonesty”. I have repeatedly stated that two influential leaders of the LDS church have made statements that encourage the suppression of historical truths that could damage the faith. This is a true statement, unless one attempts to spin and twist their words as you have already attempted.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Trevor wrote:Yes, as I understood to be the case. I was simply pointing out that the cumulative effect, whether intentional or not, at least on this reader, was a decidedly negative impression of Lee. It could be that this is completely deserved and historically accurate. Unfortunately, at present, the responsibility of Haight takes the backseat. Maybe the second volume will change this.

Although I haven't finished the book (on page 115), Katherine the Great commented on MA&D that:

The more I read this book, the angrier I am becoming with Isaac Haight. It seems clear that the attack was his idea, he was geared up for "action" that was not forthcoming from any actual military attack, he was increasingly annoyed at emigrant trains coming through and grazing their cattle and making snide comments about their ugly town and crude remarks to and about their women. He had some legitimate, human complaints, but absolutely nothing to justify the massacre. He used John D. Lee (the man who had saved his life the previous year) as his own pawn to execute the attack and then he could claim he was innocent because he wasn't present for the attack. John D. Lee, of course, was equally guilty, but I think Haight should have been executed beside Lee. The only two people who never waivered in their execution of the attack were Haight and Lee. Everyone else seemed to have had second thoughts along the way.


However, this is a comment I made on August 13th (on MA&D) – I was probably only to about page 56-or-so at the time:
In the pages I just read 5 minutes ago, I felt that the authors may have been attempting to vilify Lee preemptively (by speaking of some tribunals he had to attend)


I don't know if I'll encounter more as I read on (I assume I will), but to this point I feel that an unequal amount of ink has been used at demonizing Lee in comparison to Haight (which thus far has been seemingly sparse, if not nearly nonexistent).

I should probably refrain from commenting further until I’ve completed the book. But as things stand at this point (from my limited reading), I tend to agree with you.

-Stu


I didn't think Lee was "over-vilified" in my initial read. Especially given that the authors have not fully investigated all things, including the post-massacre behavior of the participants, including Lee.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_LifeOnaPlate
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Posts: 2799
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:50 pm

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Trevor wrote:
LifeOnaPlate wrote:No mention was made of the "oath of vengeance"


Just to be clear, I did not claim this.


Precisely.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Trevor wrote:
Daniel Peterson wrote:When one or two internet critics post their opinions, the thinking has been done. The question is closed.

Well, I would hope that my status as "critic" does not prejudice people against my reading completely.

I certainly didn't have you in mind. You come across as a grown-up who can actually discuss the substance of a book that you've read with some degree of fairness.

I also can't imagine you declaring -- only weeks after the publication of the book and before any serious reviews (let alone other relevant scholarly studies) have appeared, on the basis of a small handful of hostile message board posts or blog entries -- that "those who have read the book have delivered their verdict."

TAK wrote:DCP
Whenever I read a book on Ottoman Turkey, the rise of the Bolsheviks, the life of Thomas Jefferson, the expedition of Lewis and Clark, the Isma‘ili Shi‘ites of India, or the life of Adolf Hitler, I'm almost certainly reading a book drawing on library and archival resources that I will never see.

Specious argument ..
Those that are experts in those fields can and have accessed the information and can refute or agree with the author’s premises..

No such verification is possible in this case as the facts are controlled by the Church..

It's not a specious argument because, in several of the cases mentioned above, other experts often can't access the archival information to which one particular researcher or group of researchers has been granted access. That's why I included them.

This is not altogether uncommon.

And, in the vast majority of cases, if access to the archives isn't literally impossible for the typical reader, it's practically impossible.
_KimberlyAnn
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _KimberlyAnn »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
I should probably refrain from commenting further until I’ve completed the book. But as things stand at this point (from my limited reading), I tend to agree with you.

-Stu


YAY! Studdly's back!

*Does the Happy Dance*

I have nothing to add that's even remotely on-topic.

KA
_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

Mike Quinn's PBS interview:

You were excommunicated. What happened, why did it happen, and how did you feel?

For a believing Mormon, one who sees Mormonism as the true church and believes in the priesthood and the revelations that have been published, Mormonism is their whole life. All their hope, all of their anticipation is connected with that. Now, to be deprived of membership in the LDS Church is to lose all of that. And for a Mormon who is an ardent believer, that is a kind of death. ... When I began facing that potential, I was on the faculty of Brigham Young University, and what threw me into the jeopardy of losing my membership in the church were my publications on LDS history.

I was fulfilling what I believed was God's mission for me: to understand the leadership of the church and the history of the church as well as I could, and to present it as honestly I could with the perspective that my training gave me so that members of the church wouldn't be disturbed when they learned about these problem areas, because anti-Mormons were using history as a club to beat the faith out of people. I felt this wouldn't be possible if they already knew about these problems. ...

I felt earnestly that this was what God had prepared me to do, to present these problem areas in a context that allowed for faith and still acknowledged what the anti-Mormons or the critics would bring up, but to say: "Yeah? So what? These are human beings." God works with fallible human beings, whether they're your parents or your prophets. This is a way of understanding it and maintaining faith.

Well, the problem was that -- well, actually, it was a double problem. I was getting reports back from people who had read and heard the things that I'd say that that, in fact, was how they were understanding it. They were saying: "Oh, thank you. This makes it understandable for me." ...

On the other hand, I was hearing officially from apostles, whom I regarded as God's chosen prophets and apostles on earth, that this kind of approach to history was not faith-promoting; that it was contrary to what God wanted. ...

What specifically were you writing about that was particularly problematic?

The things that I was learning that were not pleasing to the leaders of the church that I had been publishing about were policy changes in the LDS Church; the existence of certain councils, such as a theocratic Council of Fifty that I published about that the LDS Church leaders didn't know about themselves, and if they did know about, they didn't want rank and file to know that there was a theocracy that was a part of Mormonism; polygamy, and the practice of polygamy after the Manifesto, that had been secretly practiced or practiced by Joseph Smith before it was publicly announced in 1852 as a doctrine of the LDS Church.

These kinds of things, policy changes and doctrinal changes, were things that I had written about and had tried to put into a context of seeing this as a process of change and a process of revelation, but nonetheless to acknowledge that there were these problem areas, but they didn't need to be problem areas. They could be understood as a part of the human experience or as a part of God's changing patterns of dealing with the LDS Church, or as a part of the LDS Church responding to differing circumstances. But it became clear that criticisms from apostles of the LDS Church -- Mark E. Peterson, Boyd K. Packer, [Ezra Taft] Benson -- were being directed directly at the kinds of things I was publishing, and in some cases, by title, at some of these publications of mine.

It became clear to me, when I published a long article, almost 100 pages, about plural marriage after the Manifesto, that this was coming to a breaking point between me and the church, because my local LDS Church president, the stake president, was visited by a General Authority and told that I was to be called in and punished, and that at a minimum I was to lose my temple recommend, which was the basis for church employment, and I was a professor at BYU.

Then the leader of this meeting said, "And if this doesn't keep him from doing this kind of thing, you should take further action as appropriate." And he started to get up and walk out. He thought that was the end of it. And the stake president said, "Now, wait a minute." He said: "Michael Quinn gave me a copy of this article on plural marriage after the Manifesto. I and my counselors have read it, and we don't find anything in it that is contrary to faith. It talks about some difficult experiences the church went through, but we don't see this as a reason to punish him. ... And he hasn't done this secretly, and we don't see -- we've read it." And they asked, "Have you read it?" And he said, "No, I wouldn't read anti-Mormon trash." And they said, "Well, how can you judge that what he's written is destructive of the faith if you haven't read it?" And it went around and around, and finally after two and a half hours, the stake president said, "Well, I'll call Michael Quinn in, and I will explain to him what you have said to us, and then we'll go from there."

And this representative said: "Oh, no. You can't tell him that I told you what I've told you. You can't tell him that this came from church headquarters. This has to be your objection that he is to be informed of, that you have objected to, and that you're going to punish him for." And the stake president said: "I'm not going to lie to him, so you decide: Am I going to tell him the truth and call him in, or am I not going to say anything to him? Because I am not going to lie to him." This stunned this General Authority who had been sent from church headquarters, and he said, "Well, then you do [what] you feel you need to do."

So the stake president called me in and explained this whole process, including the fact that he had been told to lie to me and to say that this was his personal objection to what I'd published. The stake president said: "I feel obligated to do something. I have to do something." And he said: "I'm taking your temple recommend. You will not be able to go back to the temple without it. But," he said, "I'm afraid that they're going to use this as a grounds for firing you from BYU if you do not have temple recommend. So," he says, "if anyone at BYU asks if you have a valid temple recommend, you tell them yes, and don't volunteer that it's in my desk drawer. And when it expires, I'll renew it, but I'll keep it in my desk drawer."

And I knew at that moment that I was dead meat, that as long as that stake president was there to protect me I would be protected, but as soon as he was relieved of his position -- and these are temporary positions; it's a lay ministry -- and another stake president who was more compliant was in the position, or if I happened to move ... out of his stake, then I was dead meat. ...

I was fulfilling my mission as I felt that God had led me to, and yet it had put me on a collision course with the leadership of the church I regarded as his prophets. ... So I prayed a lot to God: "Help me to know. If I'm wrong, I'll confess that I'm wrong. If you want me to stop my research as a Mormon historian, I will." ...

And I received the confirmation that I had received since childhood of God's presence, of this burning within, of this sense of peace which, as Jesus says, passes all understanding. I felt that I was doing nothing wrong in what I published and that they were wrong in condemning me for it. I couldn't sort this out. It didn't make any sense to me, but I felt there was no way I was going to retreat, no matter what it required, and eventually it ended up in my excommunication.


http://www.pbs.org/Mormons/interviews/quinn.html
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Doctor Steuss
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Doctor Steuss »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:I didn't think Lee was "over-vilified" in my initial read. Especially given that the authors have not fully investigated all things, including the post-massacre behavior of the participants, including Lee.

I'm not sure anyone who took part in the act can be "over-vilified"... but, thus far (once again, betraying my ignorance as I am commenting before having completed the book) it seems that an unequal amount of space (and early on within the book) has been devoted to painting Lee negatively. So far I haven't seen the same for Haight.

I imagine much might have to do with Lee’s overall character. Perhaps there weren’t the same character flaws within the early history of the settlements to allow for such commentary and presentation of evidence for Haight, but it is something that has stood out to me (for whatever strange reason).

I too am sure much more will be fleshed out within the pages of the second book (which I wonder if Walker will act as the writer to maintain the same narrative voice, or if Turley will undertake the narrative -- I must admit that I’ve enjoyed Walker’s writing voice thus far).
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
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