Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

[_Runtu]

Interesting thematic similarities:

Instead of protecting the tender women, the fairest work of God, the life of the world; behold! what hast thou done?

See! the shrieking matron cast herself into the waters that she may escape thy brutal violence: but all in vain; her garments are torn from her; she becomes a prey to thy savage lust.

Not she alone, but her daughter, and her fair sisters, have fallen into thy unhallowed hands, and been defiled!

Oh, Britain! the voice of violated chastity is risen up against thee; the mark of the beast is indelibly printed in thy forehead:

Even the old and weak men became victims of thy barbarity; thy servants stripped the aged Hope, and buffeted him; with the point of their swords did they torment him.

Do the groans of the murdered Kirby creep into thine ears? go thou and repent of thine evil, and do so no more: the Lord God of Hosts shall be thy judge;

The generous people of Columbia may possibly forgive thy crimes against them; but the remembrance thereof shall live to the end of time.

And also it grieveth me that I must use so much boldness of speech concerning you, before your wives and your children, many of whose feelings are exceedingly tender and chaste and delicate before God, which thing is pleasing unto God;

And it supposeth me that they have come up hither to hear the pleasing word of God, yea, the word which healeth the wounded soul.

Wherefore, it burdeneth my soul that I should be constrained, because of the strict commandment which I have received from God, to admonish you according to your crimes, to enlarge the wounds of those who are already wounded, instead of consoling and healing their wounds; and those who have not been wounded, instead of feasting upon the pleasing word of God have daggers placed to pierce their souls and wound their delicate minds.

And now I write somewhat concerning the sufferings of this people. For according to the knowledge which I have received from Amoron, behold, the Lamanites have many prisoners, which they took from the tower of Sherrizah; and there were men, women, and children.

And the husbands and fathers of those women and children they have slain; and they feed the women upon the flesh of their husbands, and the children upon the flesh of their fathers; and no water, save a little, do they give unto them.

And notwithstanding this great abomination of the Lamanites, it doth not exceed that of our people in Moriantum. For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue—

And after they had done this thing, they did murder them in a most cruel manner, torturing their bodies even unto death; and after they have done this, they devour their flesh like unto wild beasts, because of the hardness of their hearts; and they do it for a token of bravery.

O my beloved son, how can a people like this, that are without civilization—

(And only a few years have passed away, and they were a civil and a delightsome people)

But O my son, how can a people like this, whose delight is in so much abomination—

How can we expect that God will stay his hand in judgment against us?

Behold, my heart cries: Wo unto this people. Come out in judgment, O God, and hide their sins, and wickedness, and abominations from before thy face!

[_robuchan]

I am thoroughly enjoying this thread and the findings and discussion of this research. I strongly believe that computer statistical analysis will be the tool that finally solves the mystery of Book of Mormon creation. This appears to be a big step. Like it was suggested in the Jockers Stanford study, I think we will find a series of strong source material. I'm waiting to find a similar correlative study on the doctrinal portions of the Book of Mormon to published revivalist sermons.

However, I don't think this will ever be too damaging of a blow to Mormonism. The tight translation theory will be blown out of the water. The first hand accounts of Joseph seeing words typed in his hat will be dismissed or reinterpreted. Loose translation will be made over and new narrative will be brought to it to make it seem even more logical, natural, and true. It will be taught that this is the way God works through his prophets. Loose translation! Of course! How did we ever not see it clearly before. Meanwhile, the Mormon God becomes even more impotent and illogical.

[_Kishkumen]

I'm not "salivating" either, as that would be kind of silly. But waving off the clear similarities in style and content is equally as silly.

Is "Late War" a source for the Book of Mormon? Not necessarily. Was it an influence on the style and contents of the Book of Mormon? Possibly. Does it help provide context for the Book of Mormon? Absolutely. And I'd say it puts to bed a number of "bullseyes" for the Book of Mormon, as well.

Well, I'll admit to salivating. But about what? The prospect of debunking Mormonism? No.

I am salivating about seeing something that helps me understand Mormon origins, and the Book of Mormon's origins especially, much better.

What's not to salivate about?

I think it is instead a little strange not to be salivating about this.

[_Runtu]

Well, I'll admit to salivating. But about what? The prospect of debunking Mormonism? No.

I am salivating about seeing something that helps me understand Mormon origins, and the Book of Mormon's origins especially, much better.

What's not to salivate about?

I think it is instead a little strange not to be salivating about this.

That's about how I feel about this, too. As I said, "Late War" has already answered some questions I've pondered for years: Why send Harris to "learned men" and why was he still enthusiastic after not getting any validation? Why mimic KJV language? Why spend so much time on descriptions of battles?

So, yes, I suppose I'm salivating over finally putting the Book of Mormon into better context in time and place. Who cares about debunking Mormonism? I think neither of us would be where we are if we didn't feel we'd debunked it to our satisfaction.

[_robuchan]

The most difficult apologist to deal with IMHO is Brant Gardner. Not because anything he says is compelling, but because his theories completely eliminate the ability to prove the Book of Mormon false. Book of Mormon is a loose translation of a record written by prophets who were from a completely lost civilization, neither Hebrew nor Mayan. Of course the language is in Joseph Smith's 19th century perspective and you'll find all kinds of matching source material. But the ideas and stories he is conveying, though told in 19th century English are from this lost civilization, which incidentally we don't have any archaeological evidence for and won't (and shouldn't!). Brant would say to this research that this is exactly what he would expect to find. F***ing brilliant.

[_Kishkumen]

So, yes, I suppose I'm salivating over finally putting the Book of Mormon into better context in time and place. Who cares about debunking Mormonism? I think neither of us would be where we are if we didn't feel we'd debunked it to our satisfaction.

Demystification has its role in deconversion, yes. My wager is that other factors have played an even more significant role in the decision not to participate. Sin, as popularly conceived, is not one of them.

[_Shulem]

Anyway, you get the picture.

Evidently, you still don't "get the picture."

I found all of those references, Nevo.

I am talking about another source that uses the phrase "curious workmanship" in connection with all three kinds of items (weapons, ships, balls), and not others.

All you have done is to show that these kinds of items have been described as being of "curious workmanship." From very early on in the thread, the bar has been set higher than that.

When you meet that bar, please return and report.

Even if you manage to find such a book, I highly doubt that this book will also bear all of the other resemblances that Hunt has to the Book of Mormon, including such closeness in time and place.

Weapons, ships, and balls is a 1-2-3 punch in the gut! Add to it the 2000 warriors and you have 2000 more punches! Thus we see, the Book of Mormon is getting punched out! How many stories talk about 2,00 warriors? This is far more than a coincidence. Clearly, we see where Joe had been doing his previous reading.

Paul O

[_Runtu]

Demystification has its role in deconversion, yes. My wager is that other factors have played an even more significant role in the decision not to participate. Sin, as popularly conceived, is not one of them.

Yes, demystification has allowed me to laugh at such gems as the following from Gee, Roper, and Tvedtnes:

Abish corresponds to the Hebrew name 'bš', found on a seal from pre-exilic times (prior to 587 BC) in the Hecht Museum in Haifa.

I'd say it corresponds to "BS" quite well.

[_Shulem]

I'd better get back to finding parallels

Isn't that what Book of Abraham apologists do, finding parallels? The apologists lived by the sword and now they are dying by the sword. We can hack them up using their own strategy.



Paul O

[_mms]

PEOPLE! Five years ago, Grunder wrote about how obvious the parallels were with Late War and then a computer randomly picked the book as a source for the Book of Mormon and then we have things like this (numbers added to text to show parallel sequence):

Ether 9: 17-19 wrote:


17 Having all manner of fruit, and of grain, and of silks, and of fine linen, and of (1) gold, and of silver, and of precious things;
18 And also (2) all manner of cattle, of oxen, and cows, and of sheep, and of swine, and of goats, and also many other kinds of animals which were (3) useful for the food of man.
19 And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and (4) more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.

Late War Chapter XX wrote:


11 Now the land of Columbia is a most plentiful land, yielding (1) gold and silver, and brass and iron abundantly.
12 Likewise, (2) all manner of creatures which are (3) used for food, and herbs and fruits of the earth:
13 From the red cherry, and the rosy peach of the north, to the lemon, and the golden orange of the south.
14 And from the small insect, that cheateth the microscopic eye, to the huge mammoth that once moved on the borders of the river Hudson-; on the great river Ohio; and even down to the country of Patagonia in the south.
15 Now the heighth of a mammoth is about seven cubits and a half, and the length thereof fourteen cubits; and the bones thereof being weighed are more than thirty thousand shekels; and the length of the tusks is more than six cubits.
16 It is (4)more wonderful than the elephant; and the history thereof, is it not recorded in the book of Jefferson, the scribe ?

And you think the book may have just been in his mind? It was right there next to him. Probably with others, but I cannot be convinced with all of the similar passages that it was not right there next to him.