MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

We can argue all day about archives. I notice that the website to which you yourself link is responding to a claim that the Ottoman archives have been highly restrictive -- which didn't come out of nowhere -- and says that they have been opened up considerably since 1985. I confess that I haven't paid a great deal of attention to the specialized discipline of Ottoman studies, in particular, since I left UCLA (where Stanford Shaw was teaching) in . . . 1985.

If they've opened up now, that's great. The Church archives are also becoming much more open, which I welcome. The current Joseph Smith papers project is a marvelous instance of that:

http://josephsmithpapers.org/Default.htm

So is Massacre at Mountain Meadows itself. And, as the Church's website notes of Massacre at Mountain Meadows co-author Richard Turley:

Under his editorship in 2002, the Family and Church History Department published Selected Collections From the Archives of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 2002), a collection of 74 DVDs containing nearly 500,000 color images of many of the Church’s most important early documents, including the Joseph Smith Collection and Brigham Young’s letterbooks. Critics have hailed Selected Collections as “the most important event in modern Mormon publishing,” “an achievement of such significance that no praise, no matter how effusive, seems sufficiently laudatory.”


But you haven't really touched my fundamental point. Beastie and Master Scartch and perhaps a few others have claimed that, since not everybody (or since not every scholar) is clearly able to inspect every document and source cited in Massacre at Mountain Meadows, the book remains under a cloud of suspicion. Master Scartch, in fact, seems to want to believe it utterly worthless. (There's no reason to believe that Scartch has ever seen it. In fact, there's no particular reason that I'm aware of to believe that Scartch has ever seen any work on LDS history not written by Mike Quinn -- and perhaps only one or two of those.) But nobody that I've ever encountered appears to feel that way about the many biographies that appear each year that are based upon privileged biographer access to the private papers of Gerald Ford or the letters of Winston Churchill or the unfinished manuscripts of John Cheever or the correspondence of Franklin Roosevelt's mistress or whatever. This is an extremely common phenomenon. Usually, at least in normal circles, unprecedented acccess is seen as a selling point, a mark of a book's value, rather than as evidence of a conspiracy and reason to dismiss the work.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Yong Xi wrote:A book written about MMM by church employees or former employees is about as reliable as the pronouncement at General Conference that according to Church auditors, Church finances are in order.

Now that's the kind of frank upfront dismissal that I have in mind.

Yong Xi wrote:And Daniel, I seem to recall a thread on MADB some time ago (March 10, 2007) where you attempted to "poison the well" with regard to Dawkins' "God Delusion" by introducing a negative review of the book prior to your reading it. If I recall correctly, The Dude was taken to task by MADB MODS after asking if you had read the book.

I don't see anything wrong with citing reviews. Real reviews. Do you see something wrong with that? Could you explain what it is?
_Mister Scratch
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Daniel Peterson wrote:So is Massacre at Mountain Meadows itself. And, as the Church's website notes of Massacre at Mountain Meadows co-author Richard Turley:

Under his editorship in 2002, the Family and Church History Department published Selected Collections From the Archives of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 2002), a collection of 74 DVDs containing nearly 500,000 color images of many of the Church’s most important early documents, including the Joseph Smith Collection and Brigham Young’s letterbooks. Critics have hailed Selected Collections as “the most important event in modern Mormon publishing,” “an achievement of such significance that no praise, no matter how effusive, seems sufficiently laudatory.”


It's worth pointing out that these are the "Selected" collections. Well, of course they are! Does anyone honestly think that Turley would let anything embarrassing leak out to the public?

But you haven't really touched my fundamental point. Beastie and Master Scartch and perhaps a few others have claimed that, since not everybody (or since not every scholar) is clearly able to inspect every document and source cited in Massacre at Mountain Meadows, the book remains under a cloud of suspicion.


I said that it should be regarded with the utmost skepticism. And it should.

Master Scartch, in fact, seems to want to believe it utterly worthless.


Gee... Where did I say that? And who is "Scartch"?

(There's no reason to believe that Scartch has ever seen it. In fact, there's no particular reason that I'm aware of to believe that Scartch has ever seen any work on LDS history not written by Mike Quinn -- and perhaps only one or two of those.) But nobody that I've ever encountered appears to feel that way about the many biographies that appear each year that are based upon privileged biographer access to the private papers of Gerald Ford or the letters of Winston Churchill or the unfinished manuscripts of John Cheever or the correspondence of Franklin Roosevelt's mistress or whatever. This is an extremely common phenomenon. Usually, at least in normal circles, unprecedented acccess [sic] is seen as a selling point, a mark of a book's value, rather than as evidence of a conspiracy and reason to dismiss the work.


I agree that "unprecedented access" would be a selling point, except for the fact that those granted access were hardcore, card-carrying TBMs. You might have a point if the scholars given access had been secular never-Mos. But for you to claim that this is an "extremely common" phenomenon is sophistry. Truly "unprecedented" access would have meant that a non-Mormon would have done the research. The only "conspiracy" in evidence here is the LDS Church's silly paranoia concerning its own history.
_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

And Daniel, I seem to recall a thread on MADB some time ago (March 10, 2007) where you attempted to "poison the well" with regard to Dawkins' "God Delusion" by introducing a negative review of the book prior to your reading it. If I recall correctly, The Dude was taken to task by MADB MODS after asking if you had read the book.


Image
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_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

My duty as a member of the Council of the Twelve is to protect what is most unique about the LDS church, namely the authority of priesthood, testimony regarding the restoration of the gospel, and the divine mission of the Savior. Everything may be sacrificed in order to maintain the integrity of those essential facts. Thus, if Mormon Enigma reveals information that is detrimental to the reputation of Joseph Smith, then it is necessary to try to limit its influence and that of its authors." -Inside the Mind of Joseph Smith: Psychobiography and the Book of Mormon, Introduction p. xliii, Footnote 28


Thanks, Ray. Was that Packer?
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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Mister Scratch wrote:It's worth pointing out that these are the "Selected" collections. Well, of course they are!

Well of course they are! Does anybody seriously think that any very large archive would put everything out on CDs? Does anybody seriously think that anybody on earth would be interested in having absolutely everything on CDs? How large would the CD collection have to be to include everything? How much time would it require to produce it?

Mister Scratch wrote:Does anyone honestly think that Turley would let anything embarrassing leak out to the public?

Careful. You're begging the question.

Mister Scratch wrote:But for you to claim that this is an "extremely common" phenomenon is sophistry.

No it's not. It's not even an argument. It's a claim. Therefore, it can't be a sophistical argument.

And it happens to be true. Which is a virtue in claims.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

beastie wrote:
And Daniel, I seem to recall a thread on MADB some time ago (March 10, 2007) where you attempted to "poison the well" with regard to Dawkins' "God Delusion" by introducing a negative review of the book prior to your reading it. If I recall correctly, The Dude was taken to task by MADB MODS after asking if you had read the book.


Image

Apparently beastie thinks it's wrong to cite reviews. Does she think it's wrong to read them? Can she explain why?
_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

Apparently beastie thinks it's wrong to cite reviews. Does she think it's wrong to read them? Can she explain why?


Of course I don't think it's wrong to read reviews, nor to cite reviews. Nor do I think there's anything wrong with certain aspects of books before reading them, particularly when the discussion is not centered on the book content in and of itself, but rather the conflict of interest surrounding the production of the book.

But I think it's hilarious that the mods at MAD fussed at the dude for asking you if you'd read the book.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_Trevor
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Trevor »

Daniel Peterson wrote:I certainly didn't have you in mind. You come across as a grown-up who can actually discuss the substance of a book that you've read with some degree of fairness.

I also can't imagine you declaring -- only weeks after the publication of the book and before any serious reviews (let alone other relevant scholarly studies) have appeared, on the basis of a small handful of hostile message board posts or blog entries -- that "those who have read the book have delivered their verdict."


Well, I have had my moments... of many different kinds. I hope that they are more consistently mature in their outlook and execution in the future.

But not too mature, I wouldn't want to be a stiff either.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

My duty as a member of the Council of the Twelve is to protect what is most unique about the LDS church, namely the authority of priesthood, testimony regarding the restoration of the gospel, and the divine mission of the Savior. Everything may be sacrificed in order to maintain the integrity of those essential facts. Thus, if Mormon Enigma reveals information that is detrimental to the reputation of Joseph Smith, then it is necessary to try to limit its influence and that of its authors." -Inside the Mind of Joseph Smith: Psychobiography and the Book of Mormon, Introduction p. xliii, Footnote 28


Never mind, I answered my own question, it was Oaks.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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