Why is the only TBM argument against ex/anti/nevermos...

[_marg]

On a more serious note...

Marg, I would like to ask you a few questions. I'm almost sure that you'll probably take my questions as an attempt to dive into your personal life, or an attempt to flame, but I find it interesting how some (note I said SOME, because in my experience not all nonbelievers in God acted in the manner that you do) atheists just love to argue.

Well you are getting better...it's good that you said "some" atheists. I don't think you can generalize with good reasoning, very much about all "atheists." Atheists don't belong to a particular group, it is a label which represents individuals who hold a default position to theism. They aren't organized and don't have particular beliefs.

I have to ask, is your defense of Mormonism and only Mormonism rooted in a previous membership or familial alliance with the church? In other words, even though you may not see a need to be Mormon, could family or friend ties spark your desire to protect them? (And them only, it seems...)

No where in my responses to you in this thread did I defend Mormonism. I rarely defend any religion. That's been your erroneous perception. My criticicms in this thread have been irrespective of your religious beliefs, or anyone else's.

I almost hate to ask, because sometimes when you ask an athiest in an environment like this what his or her motivations are, they get so testy. You see, one's beliefs and spiritual experiences often motivate people. But if all you have in said area is just one big blank, then I can understand why one would hesitate to talk about it. Another athiest who doesn't frequent this board often got very angry when I asked him on another board to state what he believed. Again, our beliefs motivate us. He simply wanted to disagree for the sake of doing so (much like you), and keep as anonymous as possible. He eventually got laughed off the board.

GIMR, my main interest is critical thinking. Argumentation, logic, scientific method, religion, beliefs are examples of what interests me on Mormon discussion boards and all tie into critical thinking. I don't assume all religious individuals "reason" alike nor all non religious individuals to reason alike. There are both good and bad critical thinkers on both sides. Individuals including myself are each unique in how they reason..and religious beliefs are only one part of the makeup on any individual.

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

Hmmm

Critical thinking skills......Not many people posses them in the Mormon Church...that much has already been said a number of time...and in many ways

[_marg]

Oh...ok, I see. Marq is a person who has no religous beliefs who has set out to be the champion of one sect, hence showing his prejudice, rather than applying his principles across the board. Either that or he is simply someone with nothing else better to do than to take a person's words and make them mean what he wishes.

EVERY TBM THAT I HAVE COME ACROSS WHO SAW ME DOUBT MY FAITH MADE IT AN ISSUE OF ME LACKING IN SOME WAY.

EVERY...EVERY...NOT MOST, NOT A FEW, BUT EVERY

And yes, their behavior was asenine, not to mention cruel and insensitive.

Due to the nature of their religious training, many, perhaps even most Mormons are going to assume and/or argue whether they believe it or not that the "fault" lies with the exmormon and not the Church. But not every Mormon will argue from this position. I've been in discussions with some, who didn't argue from that perspective, Kevin Graham, Rollo Tomasi and Ben Mcguire come quickly to mind.

When an exmormon is shunned, ostracized, or moral character attacked by family members and acquaintances in real life, yes that can be cruel and insensitive. When it comes to the Internet from boards such as the old FAIR now MAD (or whatever they call themselves) and anywhere else on the Net, then I wouldn't consider their personal attacks cruel or insensitive but rather misguided and in general it is simply a matter of weak argumentation and/or poor reasoning.

[_marg]

Hmmm

Critical thinking skills......Not many people posses them in the Mormon Church...that much has already been said a number of time...and in many ways

Wrong, many people in the church do possess excellent critical thinking skills, but typically they don't apply them to their religious beliefs.

[_Sam Harris]

On a more serious note...

Marg, I would like to ask you a few questions. I'm almost sure that you'll probably take my questions as an attempt to dive into your personal life, or an attempt to flame, but I find it interesting how some (note I said SOME, because in my experience not all nonbelievers in God acted in the manner that you do) atheists just love to argue.

Well you are getting better...it's good that you said "some" atheists. I don't think you can generalize with good reasoning, very much about all "atheists." Atheists don't belong to a particular group, it is a label which represents individuals who hold a default position to theism. They aren't organized and don't have particular beliefs.

I have to ask, is your defense of Mormonism and only Mormonism rooted in a previous membership or familial alliance with the church? In other words, even though you may not see a need to be Mormon, could family or friend ties spark your desire to protect them? (And them only, it seems...)

No where in my responses to you in this thread did I defend Mormonism. I rarely defend any religion. That's been your erroneous perception. My criticicms in this thread have been irrespective of your religious beliefs, or anyone else's.

I almost hate to ask, because sometimes when you ask an athiest in an environment like this what his or her motivations are, they get so testy. You see, one's beliefs and spiritual experiences often motivate people. But if all you have in said area is just one big blank, then I can understand why one would hesitate to talk about it. Another athiest who doesn't frequent this board often got very angry when I asked him on another board to state what he believed. Again, our beliefs motivate us. He simply wanted to disagree for the sake of doing so (much like you), and keep as anonymous as possible. He eventually got laughed off the board.

GIMR, my main interest is critical thinking. Argumentation, logic, scientific method, religion, beliefs are examples of what interests me on Mormon discussion boards and all tie into critical thinking. I don't assume all religious individuals "reason" alike nor all non religious individuals to reason alike. There are both good and bad critical thinkers on both sides. Individuals including myself are each unique in how they reason..and religious beliefs are only one part of the makeup on any individual.

Marg, your very first post was a defense of Mormonism (against me and the attack you percieved I made), and to say that those who chose to blame me for the racism I endured among other things were misguided and not cruel is a defense. I'm sorry, but it is. You have no idea what I've been through. Your explanation that somehow the inevitablity of TBMs justifying a person's leaving by attacking thier character was also a defense.

If you're so interested in critical thinking, spend less time telling people they have mental problems. As intelligent as you try to make yourself out to be, such things really lower your score. But I'm sure that in your critical thinking, you'll just find another way to degrade.

I'm amused at your "approval" of my use of the word "some". Let me educate you a bit on my use of the word TBM, and why what I said was indeed correct.

A "TBM" is more than just a "true believing Mormon" there are Mormons on this board who question their church, but who have made strides within themselves to maintain their integrity while remaining LDS. They do not accept everything that is thrown at them by church hierarchy. TBMs do. TBMs are uber-Mormons, they accept no criticism of the church, they do no research on any of the claims like those made here. They are content with the whitewashed version of the church's history, and will attack rabidly anyone who looks to upset that status quo. Insistence that the person left of their own volition due to sin, or lack of knowledge, or that the person got their feelings hurt (and in my case deserved it because I was such a bitch, how dare I tell my story?), or that the person is posessed by Satan is par for the course for those people. I only see a handful of TBMs on here, out of the other LDS that post. You can be a true believing Mormon and have an active BS meter. Thank God for those LDS on here who do. They are the future of the church.

Had you read fully before you reacted in your need to engage your critical thinking and assement skills in evaluating my immaturity and lack of mental cognizance, you might have caught that. But you didn't, and in an attempt to clean up your faux pas, you only made a bigger mess by engaging in more ad hominem than you accused me of in my initial post. Very intelligent and insightful. Thank you for your worthless contribution to my thread with regards to that.

As far as Mormons being intelligent people, I agree. However, you are right many do not apply those skills to their religious beliefs. I cannot tell you how many people I have met with multiple degrees, highly intelligent, yet ready to embrace the belief that blacks are somehow cursed by God, that Jews walked this continent centuries ago, and that their faith is the only valid faith on the planet. Yes, ignorance is bliss, and that is why I see so many of those smiling faces when I step into Mormon circles. The outside world simply doesn't penetrate there. You should have seen the uproar I caused trying to attend a friend's pitiful excuse for a halloween party dressed as a pimp. One person didn't know what a pimp was (she also thought that something evil was gonna kill her for celebrating halloween), and I wasn't allowed to explain to her. It's a good thing the Mormon community is so insulated, someone like that could easily be exploited.

With regards to athiests, you need not tell me of the variety of people on this planet who embrace that belief system. And don't say it isn't a belief system, atheism is the belief that there is no God, which is a belief system. However, there are a small brand of individuals who are of your belief system who just love to debate and argue for the hell of it. They usually seek to defend that religious system they came out of due to a sense of superior pity, and seek to engage those who disagree with it for spiritual reasons, thinking that these individuals are just as clueless as the people they criticize. I'm sorry, but that is not always the case.

The LDS church has made some outstanding claims. Just like atheism asks religion to prove God's existence (and there is no problem with that), Christianity has a right to ask the LDS church to make good on its claims.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program of Marg telling me what an imbecile I am. Joy.

[_Mercury]

I personally don't think ex/anti/ whatevers are stupid.

Theres just something blocking the spirit from testifying to them. Different for each I'm sure.

Yah, its called the ability to think for oneself instead of relying on presupposed emotional queues.

[_marg]

Marg, your very first post was a defense of Mormonism (against me and the attack you percieved I made), and to say that those who chose to blame me for the racism I endured among other things were misguided and not cruel is a defense. I'm sorry, but it is. You have no idea what I've been through. Your explanation that somehow the inevitablity of TBMs justifying a person's leaving by attacking thier character was also a defense.

This is my first post in this thread: “Your post is purely ad hominem (and very nasty by the way) against a group of people with something in common...yet you supply no warrants to back up your claim. I doubt very much that Mormons resort to only one argument "all exmormons are stupid". by the way, isn't that what you are saying about Mormons?”

That post is not a defense of Mormonism nor is it an attack on you personally. Throughout our back and forth comments you have consistently made- up claims of things I’ve said which I haven’t. Now you are bringing racism into this ..as if I’ve said something about this when I haven’t.

If you're so interested in critical thinking, spend less time telling people they have mental problems. As intelligent as you try to make yourself out to be, such things really lower your score. But I'm sure that in your critical thinking, you'll just find another way to degrade.

You deserve to be degraded, given what I’ve seen from you.

I'm amused at your "approval" of my use of the word "some". Let me educate you a bit on my use of the word TBM, and why what I said was indeed correct.

A "TBM" is more than just a "true believing Mormon" there are Mormons on this board who question their church, but who have made strides within themselves to maintain their integrity while remaining LDS. They do not accept everything that is thrown at them by church hierarchy. TBMs do. TBMs are uber-Mormons, they accept no criticism of the church, they do no research on any of the claims like those made here. They are content with the whitewashed version of the church's history, and will attack rabidly anyone who looks to upset that status quo. Insistence that the person left of their own volition due to sin, or lack of knowledge, or that the person got their feelings hurt (and in my case deserved it because I was such a bitch, how dare I tell my story?), or that the person is posessed by Satan is par for the course for those people. I only see a handful of TBMs on here, out of the other LDS that post. You can be a true believing Mormon and have an active BS meter. Thank God for those LDS on here who do. They are the future of the church.

People who have been negatively affected in their real lives as a result of leaving the church have something to bitch about. But, you are bitching about Internet TBM’s who in argumentation are critical of/find fault with exmormons rather than the church. Of course they are going to have that perspective, it is a function of their indoctrination.

Had you read fully before you reacted in your need to engage your critical thinking and assement skills in evaluating my immaturity and lack of mental cognizance, you might have caught that. But you didn't, and in an attempt to clean up your faux pas, you only made a bigger mess by engaging in more ad hominem than you accused me of in my initial post. Very intelligent and insightful. Thank you for your worthless contribution to my thread with regards to that.

Yes, I did come to an opinion and I still hold that opinion, that you are a bit of a nutcase. I base that on your consistent fabrication of saying I’ve said things I haven’t.

As far as Mormons being intelligent people, I agree. However, you are right many do not apply those skills to their religious beliefs. I cannot tell you how many people I have met with multiple degrees, highly intelligent, yet ready to embrace the belief that blacks are somehow cursed by God, that Jews walked this continent centuries ago, and that their faith is the only valid faith on the planet.

I’m quite aware that Mormonism has lots of incredibly irrational beliefs.

With regards to athiests, you need not tell me of the variety of people on this planet who embrace that belief system. And don't say it isn't a belief system, atheism is the belief that there is no God, which is a belief system.

Atheism is not the belief there is no God. It is not a belief system.

However, there are a small brand of individuals who are of your belief system who just love to debate and argue for the hell of it. They usually seek to defend that religious system they came out of due to a sense of superior pity, and seek to engage those who disagree with it for spiritual reasons, thinking that these individuals are just as clueless as the people they criticize. I'm sorry, but that is not always the case.

I don’t know what you are talking about.

The LDS church has made some outstanding claims. Just like atheism asks religion to prove God's existence (and there is no problem with that), Christianity has a right to ask the LDS church to make good on its claims.

Atheism is a rejection of religious claims to a God’s existence due to an absence of evidence. Both Christianity and Mormonism have made extraordinary claims which defy natural physical laws and both have no examinable verifiable evidence. Both use unproven sacred texts to support their claims.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program of Marg telling me what an imbecile I am. Joy.

If you can dish it out, you should be able to take it.

[_Infymus]

I agree with you GIMR. Gaz said in a prior message:

Lift up your head and cry out against God all you want Vegas, if you find misery in the gospel of Christ it is because you do not apply it. You are aware of the laws of God, and openly oppose them to your own self inflicted damnation.

You deny the Holy Ghost because you choose to forget the things he has testified of to you. Think back to the time before your wilfull rebellion and remember the spirit that testified to you.

Typical - blame the victim approach. It’s always the fault of the one who leaves. Didn’t pray enough. Was under some kind of sin. Wasn’t paying tithing. Was in open rebellion against God. Could not handle the doctrine or the laws or the rules. The list goes on and on with Mormons - they never shut up about it.

Just realize that Mormons cannot fathom that you would leave because the Mormon Cult is exactly that – a Cult. And when you study the history of the Cult – you realize that it is a house of cards and it easily falls apart. Mormons like Gaz don’t want to go there, they dare not look because their entire foundation will collapse. So it is easier to blame the one who leaves Mormonism rather than investigate the true reason behind it.

Then, once you’ve left and they have exhausted their list of things they say made you leave, they turn around and dig at you further by stating how angry and hostile you are – then justify to themselves all their doctrine of “Satan has great hold…” etc, etc, etc, etc - pat themselves on the back and go back to chanting the cult mantra.

Be free GIMR. Realize that it is the Cult of Mormonism that has taught Mormons to behave in an accusatorial way. They have to justify it in their minds so they can continue to pay, pray and obey. Otherwise they might start questioning themselves and suddenly find they are the ones being blamed for apostacy.

[_Gazelam]

I am fully aware of the history of the church. Both the good and the bad. Your problem is that you have a culturally pre-supposed view of what a Prophet should be as fed to you through the window of Catholocism. You want one that flys instead of walking, and dishs out the punishment of God with a gaze.

You have prophets mixed up with the Bad guys from the second Superman movie.

Do a proper study of Prophets ancient and modern and learn that Prophets are men. Moses, Enoch, and others were exceptional and extremely valiant. Who knows what we might learn if we studied their day to day lives? What would we learn about their temperment and how they interacted with others? Was Samson a great example of a Prophet? We know he was the head of the church at one time, and that God answered his prayer for strength.

Ask yourself honestly if the fault finding you do is honest.

Gaz

[_Sam Harris]

I agree with you GIMR. Gaz said in a prior message:

Lift up your head and cry out against God all you want Vegas, if you find misery in the gospel of Christ it is because you do not apply it. You are aware of the laws of God, and openly oppose them to your own self inflicted damnation.

You deny the Holy Ghost because you choose to forget the things he has testified of to you. Think back to the time before your wilfull rebellion and remember the spirit that testified to you.

Typical - blame the victim approach. It’s always the fault of the one who leaves. Didn’t pray enough. Was under some kind of sin. Wasn’t paying tithing. Was in open rebellion against God. Could not handle the doctrine or the laws or the rules. The list goes on and on with Mormons - they never shut up about it.

Just realize that Mormons cannot fathom that you would leave because the Mormon Cult is exactly that – a Cult. And when you study the history of the Cult – you realize that it is a house of cards and it easily falls apart. Mormons like Gaz don’t want to go there, they dare not look because their entire foundation will collapse. So it is easier to blame the one who leaves Mormonism rather than investigate the true reason behind it.

Then, once you’ve left and they have exhausted their list of things they say made you leave, they turn around and dig at you further by stating how angry and hostile you are – then justify to themselves all their doctrine of “Satan has great hold…” etc, etc, etc, etc - pat themselves on the back and go back to chanting the cult mantra.

Be free GIMR. Realize that it is the Cult of Mormonism that has taught Mormons to behave in an accusatorial way. They have to justify it in their minds so they can continue to pay, pray and obey. Otherwise they might start questioning themselves and suddenly find they are the ones being blamed for apostacy.

Infymus, see above. What's sad, is that most of the personal attacks on this thread aren't even from a Mormon. But who knows what is going on with that individual. Like I say to my cousin, stop smoking your paychecks.

When I got my "release letter", that day I felt so free. And I've never tried to pull any member from the church, even those who claim they're miserable. I have a friend who is literally being crushed under the burden of being the perfect Mormon, he even doubts Joseph Smith, but won't let go. Well, I've told him to do what he does, so long as he doesn't go off on the "Mormons are more spiritual" tangent, he knows that pisses me off.

I just don't understand the insinuation that many TBMs have made to me that somehow there was something wrong with me as an African American for not being able to swallow the whole cursed skins of darkness bit. I mean, if people who are not black can be offended by this, then why is it so far of a stretch for me to be offended?

For four of the five years I was a member, I struggled with the church's past with regards to race, and the cultural ignorance that has created in the present. I tend to keep my interaction with LDS to those I know well, so that no drama ensues. The last time I tried to explain to someone why I didn't go to church, she went overboard trying to prove me wrong. First she tried to hold a party and invite all the black LDS on the east coast. Like someone's going to come from NY to attend a party. Then she insisted on taking me to church personally. The coup de embarassment: being told during a gathering, after someone laughed a a joke of mine (I used to attend a friend's FHEs...I do no longer because of this), that "see, white people like you!". Um, I never said they didn't.

Yes, when you're caught up in a cult mentality, until you wake up, no you will not be able to see why people leave. And that is why I'm grateful for the moderate LDS, especially the likes of those who populate boards like these. They are the church's only hope of eschewing rediculous doctrines such as these. Me, I'm just glad I don't have to sit in the midst of it anymore. I have a friend out in Vegas who swears she'd be dead if she weren't a member of the church. Still waiting for that perfect black LDS man to come along, because she's tired of the racism too. And I'm like, good luck. They're like leprechauns, I've heard they exist.

For a long time I didn't understand the indignation and surprise people of African American descent gave me when I told them I was LDS. Now I do.