FAIR: A Prophet Doesn't Speak For God

[_Trinity]

That's because you have to do your part. As a parent, you know that sometimes you just can't get through to your kid. I am sure God is every bit as frustrated when that happens when He tries to communicate with His children and they won't listen.

While it is not possible for us mere human beings to know exactly what does come from God, we can draw some justified conclusions based on what God "told" the individuals. You agreed that, without a doubt, there are times when human beings are absolutely convinced God told them something, and they are actually mistaken.

If it is not possible for mere human beings to have clarity on a communication from God, then how can God be frustrated? It is his own darned fault if he cannot provide a clear tool for communicating with the little people. And the little people cannot be held accountable for any miscommunication issues (which is essentially anything attributed to messaging from God).

[_malkie]

What I find interesting is when leaders of the church believe their personal "inspiration" is correct but when the HG "tells" them comflicting truths.

If I recall correctly, this was clearly evident when some of the brethren believed the blacks should have the priesthood and others did not think God wanted the ban to be liften for blacks. Seems they went for years getting conflicting messages from God/HG.

Or when prophets state something as truth, in an official capacity which turns out to be completely incorrect (think SWK for example). OF COURSE LEADERS can make mistakes.... but did the HG get it this wrong? Or are prophets and other leaders so far off course that they can seriously not tell what is and is not the HG?

Do these leaders pray for inspiration prior to sharing truth? Do they think the are getting it? Can they not differentiate between their own beliefs and the HG?

If leaders of the church get it so clearly wrong, seems to me it would give pause to other folks who think they have this clear communication with God/HG.

Or maybe not... ;-)

I guess there are those who think they are more special, more righteous, more in tune with the spirit than the prophets.

~dancer~

How can you be so cynical, so early in the New Year? [/tongue-in-cheek]

[_charity]

What I find interesting is when leaders of the church believe their personal "inspiration" is correct but when the HG "tells" them comflicting truths.

If I recall correctly, this was clearly evident when some of the brethren believed the blacks should have the priesthood and others did not think God wanted the ban to be liften for blacks. Seems they went for years getting conflicting messages from God/HG.

Or when prophets state something as truth, in an official capacity which turns out to be completely incorrect (think SWK for example). OF COURSE LEADERS can make mistakes.... but did the HG get it this wrong? Or are prophets and other leaders so far off course that they can seriously not tell what is and is not the HG?

Do these leaders pray for inspiration prior to sharing truth? Do they think the are getting it? Can they not differentiate between their own beliefs and the HG?

If leaders of the church get it so clearly wrong, seems to me it would give pause to other folks who think they have this clear communication with God/HG.

Or maybe not... ;-)

I guess there are those who think they are more special, more righteous, more in tune with the spirit than the prophets.

~dancer~

You ask some good questions. I think we have these questions because we don't know the process. I think we err when we suppose that God is standing around micromanaging and hitting the leaders upside the head with "inspiration." When has seemed to be the pattern is that God has to be asked a question.

Once the question is asked, then the inspiration can come. Myabe the fault was in not asking the question sooner.

[_solomarineris]

Of course, is a member prays and receives CONTRADICTORY information than the prophet, we all know who's wrong. They must not have prayed right, or maybe weren't worthy.

THis is why for me I feel quite fine in cherry picking and staying LDS. Prophets and apologists do it all the time.

Oh by the way, I prayed about the two earing deal. It is not of God. God does not care how many earrings you have.

Now, let's be honest Jayce....
This Man you guys call prophet puts all his predecessors in shame with his disingenuity, dissemination of false information.
I cannot recall any other Prophet giving GC talks, granting many interviews and being so clearly dishonest.
And this is so obvious to prove by members & non-members (All one has to do is google his interviews). He publicly denies the very basic tenets of LDS faith, in order to appease main stream Christians & non-Christians.
It is not worth it. Steadfast GA's, like BKP, Oaks & others think his reign has been nothing but embarrassment.

One has practically bury his head in the sand to avoid this stuff.

[_harmony]

Steadfast GA's, like BKP, Oaks & others think his reign has been nothing but embarrassment.

Where did you get this impression?

[_truth dancer]

You ask some good questions. I think we have these questions because we don't know the process. I think we err when we suppose that God is standing around micromanaging and hitting the leaders upside the head with "inspiration." When has seemed to be the pattern is that God has to be asked a question.

Once the question is asked, then the inspiration can come. Myabe the fault was in not asking the question sooner.

Charity with all due respect, you seem to suggest that the prophets of God, the men who claim to commune with Christ himself, the men who speak for God, the men who are set apart as prophets, seers, and revelators do not understand the process of revelation, but you do.

Are you seriously suggesting these prophets didn't ask the right questions? You think that for years as the apostles prayed in the Holy of Holies, they were not asking the right question which is why these men got conflicting answers concerning the ban?

Do you really think these chosen men, (some claim they were chosen in the pre-existence), do not know how to receive inspiration or revelation?

Do you not think that SWK for example, asked for guidance as he gave numerous talks as the prophet of God? Do you not think these men pray for inspiration as they dedicate temples, speak in conferences, teach truths?

You can't be serious.

I learned the whole, "you must ask the right question," idea when I was about 12 years old, If I recall correctly. Surely you don't think the prophets of God missed the memo?

So, the prophets do not know how the process works, they ask the wrong questions, they cannot tell what is or is not the HG, and they just get it wrong but some average ordinary members are totally clear on it all? These folks get the real inspiration? These members who think they know how to tell what is or is not from the HG are much better at the whole process than the prophets of God who were called to be God's spokesman on the earth.

Wow!

~dancer~

[_charity]

Busted? How?

By being unreliable. It appears that a substantial number of people cannot distinguish the influence of the HG from the effects of other, more mundane, bodily and mental processes.

That is part of what we have to learn. The Holy Ghost isn't unreliable. We are. Your demand that something be so "spectacular" as to be unmistakable takes the responsibilty off the responsible party.

When I need to communicate something important to my children, I try to make it so that they cannot easily misunderstand. The importance of the message determines the extent to which I will go to make it foolproof. It appears that god does not do the same. Either that or that the mechanism that should make communication and validation of important messages reliable has become broken - not what I would call a sign of intelligent design. I cannot distinguish between the feelings that the HG is supposed to give me, and the feelings I get when I listen to a particularly good guitar riff - think Jimi Hendrix in 'All Along the Watchtower'.

That's because you have to do your part. As a parent, you know that sometimes you just can't get through to your kid. I am sure God is every bit as frustrated when that happens when He tries to communicate with His children and they won't listen.

But, once again, is "my part" continuing to do the same thing (pray, pay, obey) until I agree with what the church says? And, as long as I don't get the desired result, the problem lies with me. And what if I cannot hear - it's not that I'm not listening. The message is not getting through in a form such that I can be sure that it is from god, and is not just my own wishful thinking.

If god really means me to "get the message", why could he not make an unmistakable sign or communication channel? Why leave it to something that is so easily confused with something else? It seems almost guaranteed to fail to work for lots of his children - and he knows it. I know, I know, it is a wicked (and adulterous?) generation that seeks for a sign. Again, I'm the problem. [/quote]

You part is to study, learn, pray, obey. That is the mortal test. There is a process called "shaping" in learning. Very seldom does a learned behavior appear full blown and developed. Think of children learning a language. If we waited until they pronounced every word correctly and spoke in full sentences before we acknowledged them, they would never learn. My grandson asks his grandpa to "go outkide cruck." He means, "May we please go outside and play in the truck?" (Which is what he calls our van, and grandpa lets him sit behind the wheel and play with all the switches. And honk the horn.) But Grandpa always repeats for him, "Do you want to go outside and play in the truck?" And he is learning to be more precise.

That is the way it is with us and learning how to recognize the "voice" of God. We are imprecise and we are given little corrections. We pray and a thought comes into our minds about what we should do. If we do that thing, we are given more.

Look at Moroni 10: 3-5 which we hold up to the world as the standard of proof.

Step 1

v. 3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

Step 2

v 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

The result is (v 5) And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

A person who has not done all that hasn't done anything "wrong" and thus not received the promised witness. They jsut haven't done all the "right" things yet. The process is not some casual read, say a few words you vaguely think is a prayer, and expect some great manifestation of the Spirit.

I'd still like to know how you can be certain that the feelings you ascribe to the influence of the HG are just that. How can you be certain that it is not satan? Do you really think that it is completely impossible that you are wrong?

There are different manifestations of the Spirit. I will confess there are times when I really don't know if the idea or feeling is a prompting. You have no idea how many times I checked on my kids when a random thought went flitting through my mind about their welfare and they were fine. But then there was the time when the same kind of thought happened, and my week old son had stopped breathing. Had I just dismissed it then, he would not be with us today. Was that the Holy Ghost? I really don't know. But I don't throw those feelings off and tend to act on them.

But there are others which have nothing in common with indigestion or heart attacks or any kind of supreme musical experience. And I have all those other things. Well, the heart attack was really only a "heart related event" as the doctor said. And I can tell you, there is not even a little similarity. And there is no way you can "reinterpret" the experience a few years down the road and decide it meant something else.

Were they of Satan? No. Because they led me to Christ. That isn't what Satan does. Could I be wrong? Well, sometimes I was when I thought something was wrong with my kids and there wasn't. Was I wrong about some extremely intense spiritual experiences? Not a chance

[_charity]

Charity with all due respect, you seem to suggest that the prophets of God, the men who claim to commune with Christ himself, the men who speak for God, the men who are set apart as prophets, seers, and revelators do not understand the process of revelation, but you do.

They do. I was suggesting that other people, particulalry those who post here, don't know what the process is.

Are you seriously suggesting these prophets didn't ask the right questions? You think that for years as the apostles prayed in the Holy of Holies, they were not asking the right question which is why these men got conflicting answers concerning the ban? Do you really think these chosen men, (some claim they were chosen in the pre-existence), do not know how to receive inspiration or revelation?

I have never said that any of the prophets did not know how to receive revelation! Golly, girl, you do jump off bridges fairly regularly! You don't know much about the process that ended in the revelation that all worthy males could recieve the priesthood. Please stop pretending that you do.

Do you not think that SWK for example, asked for guidance as he gave numerous talks as the prophet of God? Do you not think these men pray for inspiration as they dedicate temples, speak in conferences, teach truths?

Obviously. But what is your point?

I learned the whole, "you must ask the right question," idea when I was about 12 years old, If I recall correctly. Surely you don't think the prophets of God missed the memo?

So, the prophets do not know how the process works, they ask the wrong questions, they cannot tell what is or is not the HG, and they just get it wrong but some average ordinary members are totally clear on it all? These folks get the real inspiration? These members who think they know how to tell what is or is not from the HG are much better at the whole process than the prophets of God who were called to be God's spokesman on the earth.

You are off a high bridge on this. There is not one word of truth or correct interpretation in what you just wrote.

[_malkie]

Busted? How?

By being unreliable. It appears that a substantial number of people cannot distinguish the influence of the HG from the effects of other, more mundane, bodily and mental processes.

That is part of what we have to learn. The Holy Ghost isn't unreliable. We are. Your demand that something be so "spectacular" as to be unmistakable takes the responsibilty off the responsible party.

When I need to communicate something important, I take the responsibility.

When I need to communicate something important to my children, I try to make it so that they cannot easily misunderstand. The importance of the message determines the extent to which I will go to make it foolproof. It appears that god does not do the same. Either that or that the mechanism that should make communication and validation of important messages reliable has become broken - not what I would call a sign of intelligent design. I cannot distinguish between the feelings that the HG is supposed to give me, and the feelings I get when I listen to a particularly good guitar riff - think Jimi Hendrix in 'All Along the Watchtower'.

That's because you have to do your part. As a parent, you know that sometimes you just can't get through to your kid. I am sure God is every bit as frustrated when that happens when He tries to communicate with His children and they won't listen.

But, once again, is "my part" continuing to do the same thing (pray, pay, obey) until I agree with what the church says? And, as long as I don't get the desired result, the problem lies with me. And what if I cannot hear - it's not that I'm not listening. The message is not getting through in a form such that I can be sure that it is from god, and is not just my own wishful thinking.

If god really means me to "get the message", why could he not make an unmistakable sign or communication channel? Why leave it to something that is so easily confused with something else? It seems almost guaranteed to fail to work for lots of his children - and he knows it. I know, I know, it is a wicked (and adulterous?) generation that seeks for a sign. Again, I'm the problem.

You part is to study, learn, pray, obey. That is the mortal test.

The more I study and learn, the less likely it seems to me that Mormonism is "true", in any normal sense of the word. And since I have no reason to believe in the existence of god, I also have no reason to think that praying and obeying are reasonable requirements.

If I were to accept that "the mortal test" you describe really applied, I would have to undertake the study of myriad religions, because I have no reason to think that there is one, over all the others, that merits special treatment. I would spend my whole life in study and learning, without the expectation of ever reaching a conclusion.

There is a process called "shaping" in learning. Very seldom does a learned behavior appear full blown and developed. Think of children learning a language. If we waited until they pronounced every word correctly and spoke in full sentences before we acknowledged them, they would never learn. My grandson asks his grandpa to "go outkide cruck." He means, "May we please go outside and play in the truck?" (Which is what he calls our van, and grandpa lets him sit behind the wheel and play with all the switches. And honk the horn.) But Grandpa always repeats for him, "Do you want to go outside and play in the truck?" And he is learning to be more precise.

That is the way it is with us and learning how to recognize the "voice" of God. We are imprecise and we are given little corrections. We pray and a thought comes into our minds about what we should do. If we do that thing, we are given more.

Look at Moroni 10: 3-5 which we hold up to the world as the standard of proof.

I don't believe that the world accepts that this is a standard of proof, if for no other reason than that it appears to be strongly biased. A standard of proof should not require you to believe that which is to be tested, in order to accept that it is true.

Step 1

v. 3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

I do not remember these things.

Step 2

v 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

And why would I, a priori, have faith in Christ? Especially since that is part of what discovering the "truth" of these things would entail.

The result is (v 5) And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

A person who has not done all that hasn't done anything "wrong" and thus not received the promised witness. They jsut haven't done all the "right" things yet. The process is not some casual read, say a few words you vaguely think is a prayer, and expect some great manifestation of the Spirit.

I'd still like to know how you can be certain that the feelings you ascribe to the influence of the HG are just that. How can you be certain that it is not satan? Do you really think that it is completely impossible that you are wrong?

There are different manifestations of the Spirit. I will confess there are times when I really don't know if the idea or feeling is a prompting. You have no idea how many times I checked on my kids when a random thought went flitting through my mind about their welfare and they were fine. But then there was the time when the same kind of thought happened, and my week old son had stopped breathing. Had I just dismissed it then, he would not be with us today. Was that the Holy Ghost? I really don't know. But I don't throw those feelings off and tend to act on them.

But there are others which have nothing in common with indigestion or heart attacks or any kind of supreme musical experience. And I have all those other things. Well, the heart attack was really only a "heart related event" as the doctor said. And I can tell you, there is not even a little similarity. And there is no way you can "reinterpret" the experience a few years down the road and decide it meant something else.

Were they of Satan? No. Because they led me to Christ. That isn't what Satan does. Could I be wrong? Well, sometimes I was when I thought something was wrong with my kids and there wasn't. Was I wrong about some extremely intense spiritual experiences? Not a chance

Again, if the great prophet Joseph Smith, even when using his god-given device, could be deceived, how can it be that I can expect to be totally immune? Is it not possible that satan will tell me a thousand truths in order to, in the end, trap me with a lie? If the LDS GAs cannot agree on what god is telling them when they debate and pray about issues, with the assistance of the HG, how can I possibly expect to do better than them.

[_charity]

When I need to communicate something important, I take the responsibility.

Good for you. But sometimes you can't get through to people. Ever read any stories about the idiots who don't read even the plainest instructions?

The more I study and learn, the less likely it seems to me that Mormonism is "true", in any normal sense of the word. And since I have no reason to believe in the existence of god, I also have no reason to think that praying and obeying are reasonable requirements.

So this is why you won't receive a witness of the Holu Ghost. Faith is Christ is a requisite before the Holy Ghost will witness.

I don't believe that the world accepts that this is a standard of proof, if for no other reason than that it appears to be strongly biased. A standard of proof should not require you to believe that which is to be tested, in order to accept that it is true.

This is a false idea. You don't have to believe in the Book of Mormon to get a testimony of its truthfulness. You have to believe in God and Christ.

And why would I, a priori, have faith in Christ? Especially since that is part of what discovering the "truth" of these things would entail.

Because as you read and pondered what you read you would have come across Alma's instructions on how to develope faith.

I'd still like to know how you can be certain that the feelings you ascribe to the influence of the HG are just that. How can you be certain that it is not satan? Do you really think that it is completely impossible that you are wrong?

I can't explain it to you any better than a sighted person can explain vision to a blind person. I tried in another post to let you know that the experience isn't anything like a really great musical experience. Or indigestion. Etc. Satan does not bring people to Christ. And yes, it is completely impossible that I am wrong about some very specific things. I can be wrong about others, however.

Again, if the great prophet Joseph Smith, even when using his god-given device, could be deceived, how can it be that I can expect to be totally immune? Is it not possible that satan will tell me a thousand truths in order to, in the end, trap me with a lie? If the LDS GAs cannot agree on what god is telling them when they debate and pray about issues, with the assistance of the HG, how can I possibly expect to do better than them.

Joseph was not deceived. The subsequent prophets and general authorities were not deceived. Satan can tell you a thousand lies, but you don't have to listen to him. The apostles always are unanimous on their decisions, confirmed by the witness of the Holy Ghost. And the witness given to millions of the membership.