The Handcarts Again..

[_wenglund]

I don't like what the leaders are attempting to teach my TBM teenagers.

What lesson are you supposing the leaders are attempting to teach your teenagers (not to be confused with the stated lessons you have learned from the handcart experience)?

I ask because there is the distinct probability that the leaders instructional intents may be quite different from your take on things, and if theri intent stand to benefit your teenagers, then what is your cause for concern?

Are you concerned that your teenagers will view things the same way you do, in spite of the leaders intents to the contrary?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_charity]

Let's talk about modern risks for children, shall we?

Sports that we push our kids into kill and cripple a lot of kids each year.
We give them cars when they turn 16 so they can kill themselves in traffic accidents.
Non-LDS have liquor cabinets in their houses where most kids first learn to experiment with drugs.
Parents who are absent from their homes while their kids are home can expect early sexual experimentation to start.

Yeah, those mean, mean pioneers who didn't stay in their cozy homes and subjected their kids to the dangers of buffalo stampedes and Indian attacks.

[_The Nehor]

Even if it hadn't been such a dramatic event, what do you think is wrong with showing young people what it was like for people who struggled like that? My husband had a great-great-uncle who was in a handcart company. I had a great-grandmother and family who crossed the plain in a wagon train. What is with you namby pamby couch potatoes who think it is such a terrible thing for our very pampered young people to get a little glimpse of what it was like for pioneers? Gosh, 2 whole days? It took 5 months to go from Independence, MO to Oregon City, OR!

We've all had ancestors who made difficult journeys at some point in their lives, whether crossing an ocean or the plains. I had ancestors who were handcart pioneers, others who crossed in covered wagons, and plenty who came across the ocean in ships in one century or another.

I do not get into the business of criticizing how they arrived at their appointed locations, however difficult the circumstances.

However, I take issue with re-enactments of the same. Do we bundle our children up in bunks in the bottom of a wooden oceangoing vessel with diseases and livestock for months at a time to give them a better appreciation for their pilgrim ancestors?

I think handcart reenactment is something that started out simple and benign enough and got completely out of hand. Not only is it a risky enterprise in terms of personal safety to the individuals involved, it is damaging to the landscape, historic trails and sites. It's only benefit to the church can be in terms of binding members to it.

I actually did stay on a bunk in an oceangoing vessel for a few days to give me appreciation for what it was like. There were no diseases or livestock admittedly.

[_Moniker]

Let's talk about modern risks for children, shall we?

Sports that we push our kids into kill and cripple a lot of kids each year.
We give them cars when they turn 16 so they can kill themselves in traffic accidents.
Non-LDS have liquor cabinets in their houses where most kids first learn to experiment with drugs.
Parents who are absent from their homes while their kids are home can expect early sexual experimentation to start.

Yeah, those mean, mean pioneers who didn't stay in their cozy homes and subjected their kids to the dangers of buffalo stampedes and Indian attacks.

When children face hardships at any point, in any culture, at any time period I am upset by it. When children die I feel intense grief from the thought of little ones perishing. So what when it was? Who did it? Where it occurred? Or what time period?

No one is going to make me lose a sense of sympathy and despair that children lose their lives -- no matter what the circumstances or when they occurred.

So, I suppose I'm just a wacko when I read about suffering of any sort and my heart bleeds? Probably. But it's a good thing that some people recognize that when actions occur there are consequences and from those lessons we try to change the world to be a safer place for all persons. There are lessons here. That some want to deny that it is appropriate to look at the lessons, and show the very human nature of feeling empathy and concern for those that had difficulty, really speaks to their inability to empathize with their fellow man.

Or is it just when it deals with the LDS Church that it's not appropriate? That's the sense I'm getting here!

OH, and about the liquor thing. I'm a never-Mo and I've never had liquor in my house since becoming a parent. No liquor cabinet here! Should we stereotype some LDS now? I'd be happy to since you went first!

[_The Nehor]

Let's talk about modern risks for children, shall we?

Sports that we push our kids into kill and cripple a lot of kids each year.
We give them cars when they turn 16 so they can kill themselves in traffic accidents.
Non-LDS have liquor cabinets in their houses where most kids first learn to experiment with drugs.
Parents who are absent from their homes while their kids are home can expect early sexual experimentation to start.

Yeah, those mean, mean pioneers who didn't stay in their cozy homes and subjected their kids to the dangers of buffalo stampedes and Indian attacks.

When children face hardships at any point, in any culture, at any time period I am upset by it. When children die I feel intense grief from the thought of little ones perishing. So what when it was? Who did it? Where it occurred? Or what time period?

No one is going to make me lose a sense of sympathy and despair that children lose their lives -- no matter what the circumstances or when they occurred.

So, I suppose I'm just a wacko when I read about suffering of any sort and my heart bleeds? Probably. But it's a good thing that some people recognize that when actions occur there are consequences and from those lessons we try to change the world to be a safer place for all persons. There are lessons here. That some want to deny that it is appropriate to look at the lessons, and show the very human nature of feeling empathy and concern for those that had difficulty, really speaks to their inability to empathize with their fellow man.

Or is it just when it deals with the LDS Church that it's not appropriate? That's the sense I'm getting here!

OH, and about the liquor thing. I'm a never-Mo and I've never had liquor in my house since becoming a parent. No liquor cabinet here! Should we stereotype some LDS now? I'd be happy to since you went first!

I would argue that children who face no hardships grow up to be stupid gits.

[_the road to hana]

Let's talk about modern risks for children, shall we?

Sports that we push our kids into kill and cripple a lot of kids each year.
We give them cars when they turn 16 so they can kill themselves in traffic accidents.
Non-LDS have liquor cabinets in their houses where most kids first learn to experiment with drugs.
Parents who are absent from their homes while their kids are home can expect early sexual experimentation to start.

Yeah, those mean, mean pioneers who didn't stay in their cozy homes and subjected their kids to the dangers of buffalo stampedes and Indian attacks.

I don't think the issue of this thread is the original crossing, Charity. I think it has to do with modern reenactments, whether as cultural/historical events or religious pilgrimages.

[_Moniker]

I would argue that children who face no hardships grow up to be stupid gits.

How many hardships did you face, Nehor?

[_Sethbag]

I don't have a problem with the idea that the children have to go out and do something hard. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. If it were up to me, all the kids at age 18 would be shipped off to the Army or the Marines for a couple of years of service, starting with a very hard boot camp. It's the use of this hard experience to reinforce indoctrination in a false religion which I object to.

Ok, so the handcart pioneers had it rough. The church still isn't true. It isn't now, and it wasn't when they experienced their rough hardcart travel.

ps: for what it's worth, that now well-used story of the guy who stood up in Cedar City during a meeting where someone criticized the handcart company ordeal, and told about how he'd been there, and when he thought he couldn't go on anymore and the handcart would start pushing him instead, that was my great great grandfather, Francis Webster.

[_The Nehor]

I would argue that children who face no hardships grow up to be stupid gits.

How many hardships did you face, Nehor?

Not many but then this supports my theory as I am a stupid git.

[_charity]

When children face hardships at any point, in any culture, at any time period I am upset by it. When children die I feel intense grief from the thought of little ones perishing. So what when it was? Who did it? Where it occurred? Or what time period?

No one is going to make me lose a sense of sympathy and despair that children lose their lives -- no matter what the circumstances or when they occurred.

So, I suppose I'm just a wacko when I read about suffering of any sort and my heart bleeds? Probably. But it's a good thing that some people recognize that when actions occur there are consequences and from those lessons we try to change the world to be a safer place for all persons. There are lessons here. That some want to deny that it is appropriate to look at the lessons, and show the very human nature of feeling empathy and concern for those that had difficulty, really speaks to their inability to empathize with their fellow man.

Or is it just when it deals with the LDS Church that it's not appropriate? That's the sense I'm getting here!

OH, and about the liquor thing. I'm a never-Mo and I've never had liquor in my house since becoming a parent. No liquor cabinet here! Should we stereotype some LDS now? I'd be happy to since you went first!

Moniker, you obviously have a soft heart. Children suffering bothers me, too. But this is off subject.

Are parents subjecting their teenagers to threat of crippling and injry by sending them on a handcart trek for 2 or 3 days? Oh, good grief! What a crock! In that Maryland experience, yes there ended up being some risk. No one was hurt or killed. But it was something way out of the ordinary. The kids were statistically more likley to be hurt or killed driving Old Testament the stake center to meet up with their group.

About the liquor thing. Not every non member has liquor in their homes. Nor does every famly buy a 16 year old a car. I am just saying, if the shoe fits, then wear it.