If Jesus returns, where will he stay?

[_the road to hana]

There was no personal visit, then or later. Charity is dreaming that one up or passing on the myth.

Nice job, you budding apologist you! :)

Charity, can you substantiate your claim?

The right to a personal visitation is afforded to anyone, LDS or not, having gone through a particular ritual or not, according to LDS belief.

Charity, trying to defend and/or explain your closely held and cherished faith is one thing. Misrepresenting it and spreading misinformation is another.

[_Trinity]

Do we know how often it is occurring these days?

I've heard it is still happening on a not so unregular pace.

I think it's fairly safe to assume that Mitt and Ann Romney have been through the ritual.

I'm aware that the ritual is intended to pass down to the succeeding generations of those who've had it, so the children and grandchildren of a couple who've had a Second Anointing are covered by it. I know friends whose parents have had it, and have members of my own family who've had it.

It isn't that unique a ritual, and as noted before, is completely lifted from other sources.

I doubt the Romney's have had their calling and election made sure. Those I know who have received it were either seriously old (and too infirm to flub up) or seriously one foot in the grave. My sister had hers done merely days before she slipped into a coma from her cancer. Mitt Romney is neither old or dying with a chronic disease. Furthermore he is in *gasp* politics which is a warm invitation for someone to sin.

However, it is a who ya know for the most part in these scenarios. The mainstream righteous Mormon is likely not going to have a chance for this type of ordination.

And this ordination most certainly does not come with a special RSVP from Jesus on his pending visit with you.

[_gramps]

I don't see how you "explained it" to anyone. Most people who are or have been LDS here know about the Second Anointing, and many if not most of them know what the ordinance entails (whether or not they have experienced it personally). I imagine even a smattering of those who are nevermos know about it, as the information is freely available.

The context is long gone. The context was questions about the Second Coming. I said that the appearances to the disciples in the Holy Land, the appearance to the Nephites and any "other sheep" there may be, the First Vision, and subsequent appearances to the Prophet Joseph, PLUS those appearances to the people who receive the Second Annointign all count as part of the "first" advent, and are not considered the Second Coming.

Then you tookoff from there.

My point has to do with your claim that each person receiving a Second Anointing (also referred to as "Calling and Election Made Sure") receives a personal visit from the Savior following. I'm calling for references on this one. Show me one official statement anywhere that this is the case. Otherwise, you're just spreading rumor not substantiated in fact.

Official statement: Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 150. AFter quoting from John 14 Joseph writes: "Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of JesusChrist to attent him, or to appear unto him from time to time. . ."

Charity,

The second comforter is not the same thing as the second annointing, is it?

[_the road to hana]

I doubt the Romney's have had their calling and election made sure. Those I know who have received it were either seriously old (and too infirm to flub up) or seriously one foot in the grave.

While it's generally true in recent decades that the ordinance is reserved for those who are older, I'd still be willing to put money on not just the Romneys, but the Marriotts and Huntsmans as well, having already received this ordinance.

[_Trinity]

I doubt the Romney's have had their calling and election made sure. Those I know who have received it were either seriously old (and too infirm to flub up) or seriously one foot in the grave.

While it's generally true in recent decades that the ordinance is reserved for those who are older, I'd still be willing to put money on not just the Romneys, but the Marriotts and Huntsmans as well, having already received this ordinance.

What?? Are you suggesting they paid for their calling and election to be made sure?

Let's have a reporter ask him in an upcoming news conference.

;)

[_gramps]

I doubt the Romney's have had their calling and election made sure. Those I know who have received it were either seriously old (and too infirm to flub up) or seriously one foot in the grave.

While it's generally true in recent decades that the ordinance is reserved for those who are older, I'd still be willing to put money on not just the Romneys, but the Marriotts and Huntsmans as well, having already received this ordinance.

Isn't it almost impossible to flub up? Once you receive the second endowment, I thought only murder or denial of the Holy Ghost could get you booted.

I, too, think they have received it, but the church is taking a chance giving it to the younger ones. The myth has a better chance of being smashed, for sure.

[_the road to hana]

I don't see how you "explained it" to anyone. Most people who are or have been LDS here know about the Second Anointing, and many if not most of them know what the ordinance entails (whether or not they have experienced it personally). I imagine even a smattering of those who are nevermos know about it, as the information is freely available.

The context is long gone. The context was questions about the Second Coming. I said that the appearances to the disciples in the Holy Land, the appearance to the Nephites and any "other sheep" there may be, the First Vision, and subsequent appearances to the Prophet Joseph, PLUS those appearances to the people who receive the Second Annointign all count as part of the "first" advent, and are not considered the Second Coming.

Then you took off from there.

My point has to do with your claim that each person receiving a Second Anointing (also referred to as "Calling and Election Made Sure") receives a personal visit from the Savior following. I'm calling for references on this one. Show me one official statement anywhere that this is the case. Otherwise, you're just spreading rumor not substantiated in fact.

Official statement: Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 150. AFter quoting from John 14 Joseph writes: "Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of JesusChrist to attent him, or to appear unto him from time to time. . ."

Charity, here's your initial claim on page 2 of this thread:

After the ordinance, the person has a personal visitation from the Savior.

Do you really think that's the same as suggesting that one has the possibility of it happening following? Perhaps you'd like to rephrase your initial statement to make it more correct, because as it is, it's completely false and misleading and without basis in fact, even in LDS theology.

[_charity]

Charity, can you substantiate your claim? The right to a personal visitation is afforded to anyone, LDS or not, having gone through a particular ritual or not, according to LDS belief. Charity, trying to defend and/or explain your closely held and cherished faith is one thing. Misrepresenting it and spreading misinformation is another.

The Comforter, the Holy Ghost is promised to all, LDS or non-LDS. The Second Comforter is not. Read John 14. It clearly states that any person receiving the Second Comforter must be keepiong all the commandments. Study your scriptures before you make claims of misrepresenting and misinforming, please.

However, it is a who ya know for the most part in these scenarios. The mainstream righteous Mormon is likely not going to have a chance for this type of ordination. And this ordination most certainly does not come with a special RSVP from Jesus on his pending visit with you.

You are right, it's all in who you know. If you know Jesus or you don't. Mainstream righteous Mormons who have proved themselves will receive the Second Comforter. Those who haven't, at least haven't yet, won't.

Charity,

The second comforter is not the same thing as the second annointing, is it?

I think it refers to the same thing. The Second Comforter is Jesus Christ. The Second Anointing would be the ordinance.

[_gramps]

<snip>

Charity,

The second comforter is not the same thing as the second annointing, is it?

I think it refers to the same thing. The Second Comforter is Jesus Christ. The Second Anointing would be the ordinance.

[/quote]

I really don't care what you think. Can you document it?

A lot of people think as you do. I did once, as well.

But, it doesn't matter what we think, does it?

Charity, I spoke directly with someone who has had the second annointing. They did not receive a visit from the Savior.

**edited to fix some errors

[_the road to hana]

Charity, can you substantiate your claim? The right to a personal visitation is afforded to anyone, LDS or not, having gone through a particular ritual or not, according to LDS belief. Charity, trying to defend and/or explain your closely held and cherished faith is one thing. Misrepresenting it and spreading misinformation is another.

The Comforter, the Holy Ghost is promised to all, LDS or non-LDS. The Second Comforter is not. Read John 14. It clearly states that any person receiving the Second Comforter must be keeping all the commandments. Study your scriptures before you make claims of misrepresenting and misinforming, please.

If appearances by Jesus Christ were limited solely to those who'd received the Second Comforter, Joseph Smith could not have had his purported visitation from the same. Neither could Saul/Paul.

You're the one making the mistake of assuming that the Second Comforter promise limits accessibility to Christ to only those people. You've also made the mistake of suggesting that once someone has received the ordinance, they receive a visitation following.

However, it is a who ya know for the most part in these scenarios. The mainstream righteous Mormon is likely not going to have a chance for this type of ordination. And this ordination most certainly does not come with a special RSVP from Jesus on his pending visit with you.

You are right, it's all in who you know. If you know Jesus or you don't. Mainstream righteous Mormons who have proved themselves will receive the Second Comforter. Those who haven't, at least haven't yet, won't.

I'd take issue again with the statement above that I've highlighted in bold. Since the only people who receive the ordinance are those personally recommended by members of the Quorum of the Twelve, it limits that subset. It's also not true that "those who haven't. . .yet, won't," as the ordinance has also been given vicariously.

Charity,

The second comforter is not the same thing as the second annointing, is it?

I think it refers to the same thing. The Second Comforter is Jesus Christ. The Second Anointing would be the ordinance.

The "Second Anointing" is Joseph Smith's spin and take on what was discussed by both Peter and John in the New Testament regarding "another comforter" and "more sure word of prophecy," but entirely of his own invention.