What is Mormonism's Ultimate Punishment?

[_Mister Scratch]

Certainly, I have my own ideas about how to answer the question. I was merely curious what others thought. Apparently, as per Nehor, there seems to be some confusion (or "waffling") on the issue of whether or not apostasy merits Outer Darkness.

There's no confusion at all. All you have to do is understand LDS doctrine. Anyone who has gone to Church and payed attention to the Gospel Doctrine, Priesthood, and Relief Society lessons in any given year could answer your question (or who has a good working knowledge of the scriptures).

Scriptural exegesis can lead to only one conclusion: Apostates will be cast into Outer Darkness.

Apostasy, in and of itself, does not involve a resurrection of no glory. Only when one's knowledge has been so clear, deep, or great enough, that apostasy involves one in a brazen denial of such intimate direct knowledge and experience, can the sin against the Holy Ghost be committed.

Oh? And where in the scriptures does it say this? Please, do share!

"Falling away" from the Church, for most, will involve no such compromises (which is not to say it will not involve a compromise with one's testimony. But testimonies exist at various levels of strength, immediacy, and depth, and only at a certain level does the sin against the Holy Ghost become a live question).

Again, where is this written in the standard works? The standard works don't say this at all. Rather, D&C 76 seems to indicate that garden-variety apostates will meet their doom in Outer Darkness.

The bottom line is that "hell" is another part of LDS theology that most TBMs are utterly embarrassed about. This is perhaps the apotheosis of the "meat" that is supposed to be kept away from investigators and non-Mormons.

Mr. Bo Jangles...Dance. "Hell", or "Outer Darkness", is for the wicked, not for people who simply leave the Church, for whatever reason. Many who have left the Church will no doubt find themselves resident in that benighted world for some time. Others will not. Those who must experience the purging of this sphere of existence before their redemption are clearly delineated in the D&C. The salient feature, as you will notice, is not whether or not they left the Church, or even whether or not they ever joined it. The salient feature is that they refused to receive the testimony of Christ and lived Telestial lives; lives of carnality and sensuality.

What? No. Those kinds of people will be sent to the Telestial Kingdom, not Outer Darkness. Outer Darkness, as per D&C 76, is for apostates only.

[_Mister Scratch]

Are you an idiot? Okay, let's try this again and I'll try to use small words.

Apostates do not all get sentenced to eternal Outer Darkness. Those Apostates who KNOW the gospel is true and still defy it get that punishment. The rest do not.

Now, do you get it? Has everyone here gotten dumber since I left?

CFR, Nehor. I want to see the canonical, scriptural passage which clearly delineates this "doctrine." The relevant verse in D&C 76 states,

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

(emphasis added)

I gather that you're arguing that the portion of the text I've bolded only refers to certain people to whom God has "revealed" Jesus.... So, what might that mean? Is there some special religious experience which is only limited to a select few, such as the Brethren? Or does this text refer more generally to the atonement and the restoration? I vote the latter. Your interpretation really doesn't make any sense, Nehor. It lacks teeth; it doesn't fit Joseph Smith's historical context; there is no other scriptural text (as far as I know) to support your view; so far as we know, nobody these days---the Brethren included---receive this "revealed" version of the Son that you seem to be referring to.

Face it, my dear nebbish friend, this scripture clearly indicates that garden-variety apostates will be sent to Outer Darkness. The real mystery is why TBMs seem to have such a problem with this. I mean, c'mon: Why all the gnashing of teeth? Don't y'all sort of like the fact that these apostates will have to suffer such a fate in the life to come? Don't you think they *deserve* it for rejecting the Church?

[_The Nehor]

Are you an idiot? Okay, let's try this again and I'll try to use small words.

Apostates do not all get sentenced to eternal Outer Darkness. Those Apostates who KNOW the gospel is true and still defy it get that punishment. The rest do not.

Now, do you get it? Has everyone here gotten dumber since I left?

CFR, Nehor. I want to see the canonical, scriptural passage which clearly delineates this "doctrine." The relevant verse in D&C 76 states,

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

(emphasis added)

I gather that you're arguing that the portion of the text I've bolded only refers to certain people to whom God has "revealed" Jesus.... So, what might that mean? Is there some special religious experience which is only limited to a select few, such as the Brethren? Or does this text refer more generally to the atonement and the restoration? I vote the latter. Your interpretation really doesn't make any sense, Nehor. It lacks teeth; it doesn't fit Joseph Smith's historical context; there is no other scriptural text (as far as I know) to support your view; so far as we know, nobody these days---the Brethren included---receive this "revealed" version of the Son that you seem to be referring to.

Face it, my dear nebbish friend, this scripture clearly indicates that garden-variety apostates will be sent to Outer Darkness. The real mystery is why TBMs seem to have such a problem with this. I mean, c'mon: Why all the gnashing of teeth? Don't y'all sort of like the fact that these apostates will have to suffer such a fate in the life to come? Don't you think they *deserve* it for rejecting the Church?

CFR of no one getting that special religious experience. In regards to your question, I vote the former. If people got it, do you really think they would tell you of all people?

Part of me does want them to suffer that fate. That part of me needs to die. Additionally, what I think they deserve is irrelevant. In addition, ticking me off does not deserve an eternity of torment. When you hate God to the point that an eternity of that torment is the least painful option for you, then you stay there. So Scratch, IF you know the Gospel is true and IF you still hate it, then you can likely have the fortitude to spit at the Atonement at the Last Day and go into everlasting fire forever. If you're anxious to get to such a point, good luck, sounds like hard mental work.

Edit: Also, if you want a glimpse of hell the Lord has said he's shown it unto 'many'. Try asking him.

[_Mister Scratch]

CFR of no one getting that special religious experience.

I did not say that "no one" gets "that special religious experience." I said, "so far as we know", nobody "gets it." If you want a reference, you can examine the "Twin Charges of Apostleship" chapter in The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power.

In regards to your question, I vote the former. If people got it, do you really think they would tell you of all people?

Why wouldn't they?

Part of me does want them to suffer that fate. That part of me needs to die. Additionally, what I think they deserve is irrelevant. In addition, ticking me off does not deserve an eternity of torment. When you hate God to the point that an eternity of that torment is the least painful option for you, then you stay there. So Scratch, IF you know the Gospel is true and IF you still hate it, then you can likely have the fortitude to spit at the Atonement at the Last Day and go into everlasting fire forever. If you're anxious to get to such a point, good luck, sounds like hard mental work.

Edit: Also, if you want a glimpse of hell the Lord has said he's shown it unto 'many'. Try asking him.

So: you are conceding that your interpretation is unsupportable, and that, in fact, the correct view of the doctrine is that garden-variety apostates will go to that place where "their worm dieth not"? Otherwise, I'd like to see your evidence that the passage in D&C refers only to the Last Day....

Face it Nehor: you have no evidence. Your long-standing, warm 'n' cuddly view of this scripture is incorrect. I'm sure it's deeply troubling for you to know that the Church indicates that any who turn away from the Church will be sent to Outer Darknes, but, well.... There it is.

[_unwell3398]

See, this is why Mormons are given a bad name: for people like you and your way of responding and treating others.

I'm emulating my Savior: "A generation of vipers shall not escape the damnation of hell."

Bye now.

I looked up the definition of viper, and one of them popped right out at me when I thought of you:

"A person regarded as malicious or treacherous."

You, Nehor, are quite malicious in your dealings. At least I am a kind soul. I feel no need to fear the damnation of hell.

But by your definition...should you?

[_Doctor Steuss]

As a kooky heretic that believes "eternal progression" probably allows progression between kingdoms and potentially for those in "Outer Darkness" as well, I would have to say that the ultimate punishment in Mormonism is stagnation... or maybe stupidity.

In other words, there is no "hell."

[_karl61]

The Missionary Training Center gets my vote.

[_Jason Bourne]

I think D&C 76 answers this question fairly well.

So, what is the answer then? Would somebody like, say, Polygamy Porter or Steve Benson qualify as a "son of perdition"? Will these folks be cast down into Hell in order to suffer eternal torment?

See: just as with Nehor, my experience is that TBMs tend to waffle and get uncomfortable with this question.... Is there or is there not a real, terrifying, palpable hell that has some bearing on our mortal existence?

D&C 76 says Sons of perdition and outer darkness is the ultimate punishment. They are the only ones that are not redeemed. All others will receive a glory of some sort though some may have to suffer till the final judgment for their own sins.

[_Mister Scratch]

I think D&C 76 answers this question fairly well.

So, what is the answer then? Would somebody like, say, Polygamy Porter or Steve Benson qualify as a "son of perdition"? Will these folks be cast down into Hell in order to suffer eternal torment?

See: just as with Nehor, my experience is that TBMs tend to waffle and get uncomfortable with this question.... Is there or is there not a real, terrifying, palpable hell that has some bearing on our mortal existence?

D&C 76 says Sons of perdition and outer darkness is the ultimate punishment. They are the only ones that are not redeemed. All others will receive a glory of some sort though some may have to suffer till the final judgment for their own sins.

Yes, of course---but who are the "sons of perdition"? My reading of the scripture is that the "sons of perdition" are apostates, or anyone who opposes the Church.... Nehor seems to think not, and (apparently) to think that banishment to Outer Darkness can only happen to very high-ranking GAs who've seen Jesus in the flesh.

[_unwell3398]

I think D&C 76 answers this question fairly well.

So, what is the answer then? Would somebody like, say, Polygamy Porter or Steve Benson qualify as a "son of perdition"? Will these folks be cast down into Hell in order to suffer eternal torment?

See: just as with Nehor, my experience is that TBMs tend to waffle and get uncomfortable with this question.... Is there or is there not a real, terrifying, palpable hell that has some bearing on our mortal existence?

D&C 76 says Sons of perdition and outer darkness is the ultimate punishment. They are the only ones that are not redeemed. All others will receive a glory of some sort though some may have to suffer till the final judgment for their own sins.

Yes, of course---but who are the "sons of perdition"? My reading of the scripture is that the "sons of perdition" are apostates, or anyone who opposes the Church.... Nehor seems to think not, and (apparently) to think that banishment to Outer Darkness can only happen to very high-ranking GAs who've seen Jesus in the flesh.

Here's a question though..HAVE any GA's seen Jesus in the flesh? Honest question here, with GBH's blunder on TV and everything he's ever said. Is that something GA's claim?