Where is the Joy in Mormonism?

[_wenglund]

Think of it as not unlike choosing to be optimistic and positive in one's outlook on life. Making such choices don't rob things of inherent or explicit positivity and optimism, though they do enable us to see things in that way--whether inherently so or not.

What I am advocating is taking personal responsibility for, and control over, ones disposition--a form of proactive joyousness, rather than leaving oneself at the mercy of reactive joyousness.

I hope this helps.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I agree that we can and should choose a proactively joyful disposition, but that doesn’t negate the responsibility for proactively choosing environments that facilitate joy.

In Man’s Search for Meaning, Viktor Frankl claimed something to the effect that even when he was imprisoned in a concentration camp, he was still fully autonomous in his own mind and was able to chose to live a happy, purpose-driven, fulfilling life. If he was capable of that, I’m sure most of us could be happy in an LDS ward.

However, for some of us trying to find internal joy while in an LDS Church service is like somebody finding an internal sense of physical well-being while eating a diet consisting of nothing but doughnuts and an exercise routine that consists of carrying Coke from the fridge to the couch.

A lot of Mormonism is driven by a commitment to endure to the end. If Mormonism itself (e.g. the theology, the correlated lessons, the standardized worship services, gender roles) doesn’t do it for you and if you don’t happen to be assigned to a ward where you are energized by the other people who were assigned to be there, then you can find yourself motivated by nothing more than a commitment to obey the law of obedience and endure to the end.

I totally agree with what others have said—it works for many people and if it works for you then that’s great. But if it doesn’t work for you, then you have the moral obligation to take responsibility for your own life and choose an environment that is more conductive to the joy of yourself and the people around you.

While I view the Church quite differently from your caraciture as likened to eating only doughnuts and carry Coke from the fridge to the couch, I do sympathize with your point about finding an environment that will work in one's best interest and to the best interest of one's family. This is particularly true with environments that may be inherently toxic or that inadvertantly engender toxicity in some--including those within the home.

And, no matter what the walk of life, though we may not always make the correct choices regarding what is in our best interest (my eating habits during my youth and early adulthood left much to be desired), hopefully as we experience things and grow and learn from our mistakes, that will improve. Such is the maturation process.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_ajax18]

People are there because they want to be there, and for no other reason. They don’t believe it’s required to attend church to be “saved”. They just like going.

It's interesting to me the different things that turn people off to religion. I've heard this criticism from a lot ex-Mormons, so much that it almost seems to me that Mormonism has shifted its doctrine to state that the "only out of Love of God," is the highest and purest form of motivation.

For me the love of God motivation does not seem to add up. The only consequences I truly have to live with eternally are for myself. Is that selfish? Absolutely. I believe that each individual owes it to himself to develop Christlike attributes and act unselfishly. The reason I advocate this is because this is ultimately in the individuals self interest. If it were not, I would not advocate unselfish behavior in those that want to be happy. My point being, ultimately you have to do these things for yourself, or you're just not going to have the motivation to see it through. Ultimately, the only one you're really responsible for and will bear the consequence of is your own actions, not God's, not your family's, and not your neighbors.

It's Mormonism's resistance to my line of thinking that turns me off to it, because it acts as further evidence that they do not have my best interest at heart, and truly are, just bullying and using me.

I can't say I would ever like going to Church just because I like it, anymore than it would be natural for me to act unselfishly all the time. If you're really honest about it, most people cat out of self interest 98% of the time. Even self proclaimed unselfish people must understand that their first obligation truly is to themselves. Otherwise they wouldn't act the way they do. When religion fails to demonstrate to people why moral behavior is ultimately in ones self interest is when it truly becomes distasteful and impotent.

Could you be confusing "self-interest" with "self-centered"?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Perhaps, I've never learned of a difference between the two. For me it's just a fundamental philosophical difference I have with most people. I strongly reject the criticism that it is selfish or evil in some way to choose to do the right thing because you know it is in your ultimate best interest. In fact, I think that if most of these critics were to examine themselves a little more deeply they would recognize that most of what they do is in fact for their own sake. Nor do I think they would maintain that doing something for yourself is inherently evil. Yet if we listen to talks on selfishness and follow them to their logical conclusions, one could very easily get the idea that doing anything for yourself is somehow evil.

I don't think I'm in a minority when I say that I could find a lot more appealing things to do than go to church, regardless of how captivating and inspiring the service seems to be. So, just going because I wanted to would probably never happen. It barely happens when I believe my eternal salvation depends on it.

To me, the difference between self-interest and self-centeredness (or "selfishness") is the former is a secondary focus or objective or even a by-product of one's primary focus or objective, whereas the later is the primary focus or objective. For an example, a mother's love may cause her to sacrificing her time and energies and so forth for her children, from which she may derive joy and happiness that are in her interest, though her love makes her children-centered rather than self-centered. Were she self-centered, she would not make the sacrifices, or if she did, it would be primarily for her own benefit rather than her childrens. In other words, as maturity tends to teach us, it may be in one's interest to be loving and selfless (so-to-speak), while it may not be in one's interest to be self-centered. Such would not be possible if the two were equivolences.

But, this is not said in an attempt to persuade you to attend church again. As an adult you have the right to choose and decide what is in your best interest. Rather, it is intended to provide a different perspective to the one you gave regarding the supposed motives and actions of the Church. While the Church may rightly promote self-interest, the gospel it espouses is intended to promote selflessness and love, which is quite opposed to self-centeredness--though not a few members and former members may get the two confused. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

So bascially self interest is a good thing and self centeredness is a bad thing? I can agree with that. I still think we would do a lot better to show people why the gospel in their self interest rather than constantly using guilt and stern condemnation to try to shame people into toeing the line.

[_wenglund]

Well, perhaps if we want to personally improve and better our lives we shouldn't make statements such as these?

And, I trust that since joy and contempt are incompatible, that the inner joy they feel will prevent them from thinking, let alone speaking, ill of other people or faiths. ;-)

Why don't you go say that a few times at MAD, Wade? :)

As a matter of fact I have said similar things many times at MAD, and have found at least some who have found their lives improved as a result thereof--not the least of which being me. ;-)

So, I am not sure why you think I shouldn't make such statements?

I would think a kindly suggestion to not speaking ill of others would be welcomed wherever.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Moniker]

Well, perhaps if we want to personally improve and better our lives we shouldn't make statements such as these?

And, I trust that since joy and contempt are incompatible, that the inner joy they feel will prevent them from thinking, let alone speaking, ill of other people or faiths. ;-)

Why don't you go say that a few times at MAD, Wade? :)

As a matter of fact I have said similar things many times at MAD, and have found at least some who have found their lives improved as a result thereof--not the least of which being me. ;-)

So, I am not sure why you think I shouldn't make such statements?

I would think a kindly suggestion to not speaking ill of others would be welcomed wherever.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Heh. Right over your head. The thread is about joy in the LDS Church. If "joy and contempt are incompatible" then those that think (and say) the other Churches aren't "true" might not have much joy at all? :)

[_wenglund]

So bascially self interest is a good thing and self centeredness is a bad thing? I can agree with that. I still think we would do a lot better to show people why the gospel in their self interest rather than constantly using guilt and stern condemnation to try to shame people into toeing the line.

As I see things, since different approaches work differently with different people at different times and at differing levels of progression, I am all for the Chruch using all sorts of approaches for our good. If one looks carefully throughout the scriptures one will find God alternating his approach from motivating people at times out of fear and guilt, to motivating them out of reward, to other times motivating them out of a sense of duty and obligation or also motivating them out of love. Again, to everything there is a season.

However, I think your point is well taken about "the Church" (particularly local leaders) perhaps needing to improve on utilizing more positive forms of motivation. Perhaps such improvements may be affected by kindly informing them of how such would be in there interest, rather than resorting to guilt and condemnation--not that you were doing that. ;-)

P.S. I hope all is going well with school (that is, if you haven't completed it already).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_SatanWasSetUp]

I attend a UMC congregation now and I can’t over-exaggerate the difference. It’s non-dogmatic. The services are joyful. People are there because they want to be there, and for no other reason. They don’t believe it’s required to attend church to be “saved”. They just like going. The music is uplifting. Most people seem happier for having spent their Sunday morning at church, and although I am probably not in theological agreement with the majority of folks in my congregation, I never, ever feel condemned by anything I hear there.

Kids dance and sing right up front and no one cares. People like it! I often provide sign language interpretation for the music, not because there are any deaf folks there, but because people enjoy it for some reason. And, I like doing it, so it’s win-win.

I can’t imagine anyone telling us we can’t give snacks to kids! Kids can go to church to learn about God, just like in the Mormon church. But, they can have Goldfish crackers, too. And, even if they’re not convinced God loves them, or if He even exists, those kids will know there are lots of people who love them. Who make them chocolate chip cookies. And who answer to no controlling Stake President who sees some value in a child being hungry!

No one cares how anyone else is dressed. No one cares who has a tattoo or how many earrings are in ears, male or female. And, the pastor asks folks to come up front to pray--specifically those who are struggling with addictions, or know someone who is. He struggled with alcoholism for years, and knows there are people right there in the building who need help. And people go forward to pray. They do it without shame, and others join them. I’ve gone up for someone else before, and didn’t think twice if anyone thought it was me with the addiction! The atmosphere is so supportive. No one has to fake like they’ve no problems. The people are “real”, for lack of a better term.

KA

you pointed out what makes morminism so awesome. The church you attend is a modern church which has obviously apostacized from the truth. The Mormon church is a restoration of ancient christianity. They didn't have cool music back then. They didn't have tattoos and earrings. Kids didn't dance because they had work to do. Women were property to be collected, like stamps. Slutty women were stoned. Heretics were burned. People went to church to make the local authorities happy. All the advances in civilization ruined religion by making it more progressive and accepting. THe Mormon church is a restoration of the good old days of ancient christianity.

[_wenglund]

Well, perhaps if we want to personally improve and better our lives we shouldn't make statements such as these?

And, I trust that since joy and contempt are incompatible, that the inner joy they feel will prevent them from thinking, let alone speaking, ill of other people or faiths. ;-)

Why don't you go say that a few times at MAD, Wade? :)

As a matter of fact I have said similar things many times at MAD, and have found at least some who have found their lives improved as a result thereof--not the least of which being me. ;-)

So, I am not sure why you think I shouldn't make such statements?

I would think a kindly suggestion to not speaking ill of others would be welcomed wherever.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Heh. Right over your head. The thread is about joy in the LDS Church. If "joy and contempt are incompatible" then those that think (and say) the other Churches aren't "true" might not have much joy at all? :)

I suppose that were the alleged statements about other Churches not being "true" to have been engendered by contempt, then at least to the extent that there was contempt in such cases, there wouldn't be much joy. That point is certainly not over my head.

However, I don't know how often such comments by Church members are the product of contempt, rather than merely a product of induction and deduction based on one's personal beliefs, or some other benign causation. With as much experience as I have had in the Church, I have found very little contempt for other faiths, let alone manifest in that way. So, since the topic is about joy in the Church (not to be confused with the presumed joy or contemt of certain select and few members) I am not sure your comments are so much a matter of being over my head as they may be simply way over-stated, heh. ;-)

Besides, I was responding to your specific questions. If you think my pertinent answers may be off-topic, then you may want to examine more carefully what it is you are asking.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Moniker]

Well, perhaps if we want to personally improve and better our lives we shouldn't make statements such as these?

And, I trust that since joy and contempt are incompatible, that the inner joy they feel will prevent them from thinking, let alone speaking, ill of other people or faiths. ;-)

Why don't you go say that a few times at MAD, Wade? :)

As a matter of fact I have said similar things many times at MAD, and have found at least some who have found their lives improved as a result thereof--not the least of which being me. ;-)

So, I am not sure why you think I shouldn't make such statements?

I would think a kindly suggestion to not speaking ill of others would be welcomed wherever.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Heh. Right over your head. The thread is about joy in the LDS Church. If "joy and contempt are incompatible" then those that think (and say) the other Churches aren't "true" might not have much joy at all? :)

I suppose that were the alleged statements about other Churches not being "true" to have been engendered by contempt, then at least to the extent that there was contempt in such cases, there wouldn't be much joy. That point is certainly not over my head.

However, I don't know how often such comments by Church members are the product of contempt, rather than merely a product of induction and deduction based on one's personal beliefs, or some other benign causation. With as much experience as I have had in the Church, I have found very little contempt for other faiths, let alone manifest in that way. So, since the topic is about joy in the Church (not to be confused with the presumed joy or contemt of certain select and few members) I am not sure your comments are so much a matter of being over my head as they may be simply way over-stated, heh. ;-)

Besides, I was responding to your specific questions. If you think my pertinent answers may be off-topic, then you may want to examine more carefully what it is you are asking.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade, why would you make the comment to KA about those in her Church not speaking ill of others? WHY would you say that? Did you assume they would? Do you just randomly say that phrase in all threads? Or just in those threads where other Churches are being discussed? Did you ASSUME that the Methodists speak poorly about the LDS Church?

Once again if joy and contempt are incompatible look at the history of YOUR Church and how they view the Methodists.

The LDS Church does believe the Apostles Creed (that the Methodists recite EVERY single Sunday) is an abomination of God! I don't think I'm overstating anything. I find it rather humorous that the LDS Church often talks about how they're treated poorly by Protestants and yet, have no qualms believing other Churches are not "true" and their creeds are an abomination.

by the way, I'm an equal opportunity offender when it comes to Churches. Yet, I'm rather joyful. :)

[_wenglund]

Wade, why would you make the comment to KA about those in her Church not speaking ill of others? WHY would you say that? Did you assume they would? Do you just randomly say that phrase in all threads? Or just in those threads where other Churches are being discussed? Did you ASSUME that the Methodists speak poorly about the LDS Church?

I am not sure why you would suspect that I woud ASSUME that Methodists in general, or KA's Methodist congregation as a whole, would speak poorly of LDS, when I explicitly said the opposite. I overtly stated that I trusted that, given their stated joyousness, they would not, on the whole, speak poorly of LDS.

This is not to say that no one in KA Methodist congregation may speak ill of the LDS Church. It is possible that someone in that congregation may lack sufficient inner joy and thus be disposed to speak ill of the LDS Church. In fact, as it turns out, at least one member of that congregations has often spoken ill of the LDS Church here (note, for example, the openning post to this thread).

My comment to KA was worded in a benign and generic and non-presumptuous way so as to avoid being judgemental of anyone. It can in no reasonable way be interpreted as an ASSUMPTION about her congregation, let alone even about her, though it is a kindly reminder about the incompatibility of joy and contempt, in hopes that we all will chose joy, if we haven't done so already.

I hope that helps.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Moniker]

Wade, I must have misread your intent. I saw the ;-) and made assumptions. If you say it was not your intent to imply that ill things were said about other faiths I accept that. For some reason or another, when I read your posts lately they do come across as judgmental -- even when you say they're not meant in that manner. Perhaps, it's just me? Do I need to do some introspection? ;)