Its the deal and the Home Teachers broke it (DUH!)

[_John Larsen]

Merc,

Lets see here, we spoke of what a testimony is and how it is not an accurate method of determining truth.

On a personal basis, or as a collection of testimonies collected over thousands of years that testify of the same thing?

On the fact, experienced directly by myself as a missionary and many others who have also expressed the same overwhelming consensus. Moroni 10 clearly sets up the Mormon "testimony" for failure. 199 out of 200 individuals who I taught the discussions to verbatim found that the Book of Mormon does not deliver "the spirit" or any other confirmation. Sure, wrap it up in bad procedure as such is routine in explaining away a lack of a supposed spiritual witness, its expected from the faithful.

The thousands of testimonies are drowned out by the torrent of individuals who have prayed and followed "moronis gimmick" and still came up with opposite conclusions. The Mormon testimony is neither reliable or consistent.

I rarely found people who would even make the attempt. Those who did (all of them) joined the Church. That is my own experience with Moroni's promise.

When I was in the MTC the MTC President gave a talk in which he said that 1/2 of the missionaries in that room would "fall away" in the future. I would guess that no group in the Church is more familiar with Moroni's promise than missionaries. It just doesn't hold that this is such a binding experience.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

Merc,

Lets see here, we spoke of what a testimony is and how it is not an accurate method of determining truth.

On a personal basis, or as a collection of testimonies collected over thousands of years that testify of the same thing?

On the fact, experienced directly by myself as a missionary and many others who have also expressed the same overwhelming consensus. Moroni 10 clearly sets up the Mormon "testimony" for failure. 199 out of 200 individuals who I taught the discussions to verbatim found that the Book of Mormon does not deliver "the spirit" or any other confirmation. Sure, wrap it up in bad procedure as such is routine in explaining away a lack of a supposed spiritual witness, its expected from the faithful.

The thousands of testimonies are drowned out by the torrent of individuals who have prayed and followed "moronis gimmick" and still came up with opposite conclusions. The Mormon testimony is neither reliable or consistent.

I rarely found people who would even make the attempt. Those who did (all of them) joined the Church. That is my own experience with Moroni's promise.

When I was in the MTC the MTC President gave a talk in which he said that 1/2 of the missionaries in that room would "fall away" in the future. I would guess that no group in the Church is more familiar with Moroni's promise than missionaries. It just doesn't hold that this is such a binding experience.

I don't recall anyone preaching a "once saved always saved" mentality regarding Moroni's promise. Alma 32 explicitly denies such a claim.

[_Mercury]

I don't recall anyone preaching a "once saved always saved" mentality regarding Moroni's promise. Alma 32 explicitly denies such a claim.

I do not think you are getting the point. a testimony gained through moronis promise is supposed to be a surefire method for determining what is true. The worth of M's P is proven to be nonexistent by the overwhelming rejection of the Book of Mormon.

I taught, was told to teach and was taught that M's P was a tool to be used to effectively convert individuals. Cognitive dissonance always cropped up when, after programming the investigator to recieve the answer LDS Inc. wanted, the answer was not what we had been told would happen.

There was no "IF they reject it", it was always "once they have accepted it". The idea of rejection of the process was nonexistent to us missionaries, it worked all the time unless it was supposedly clouded by a frame of mind inconsistent with what we had warned them against previous to them praying.

By pushing groupthink via members who were friends or family of the investigator one can force an easily swayed individual to bend to the whims of whoever got the missionaries in the door. If its the investigator it was usually a stake missionary playing the role of missionary parrot.

What it comes down to is that to the missionary there is no other option aside from going through the process and convincing the investigator that the ONLY conclusion is that the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be. There is no escape, essentially, out of this process in the mind of the missionary. As soon as the investigator chooses the option of not trusting the church they are either coerced by the Mormons into not trusting their initial reaction or they break off the discussions.

In the illogical world of moronis promise there is no resistance, its futile.

[_Gazelam]

I know that if a person prays with real intent, it works exactly as promised. I had people chase us down after receiving an answer to their prayer, asking if we would baptise them.

It worked for me also.

[_Scottie]

I know that if a person prays with real intent, it works exactly as promised. I had people chase us down after receiving an answer to their prayer, asking if we would baptise them.

It worked for me also.

Well, I happen to know that it doesn't work. That's 1st hand experience talking.

[_Mercury]

In the Milwaukee, Wisconsin mission.

LOL, I served in Minnesota/Wisconsin/Iowa/Michigan

Must have been bigger way back then. Currently the mission covers most of the state (except the west bump) and the UP.

The last 6 months of my mission, also known as "playtime", I covered the western "bump" from east of Superior (the town), up to Ashland and acrost, over to the UP, Ironwood specifically and eastward.

6 months of pure bliss with two other like minded missionaries.

[_Mercury]

I know that if a person prays with real intent, it works exactly as promised. I had people chase us down after receiving an answer to their prayer, asking if we would baptise them.

It worked for me also.

Did they tell you about the great prophecy of your arrival? I am sure the story grows in the telling.

[_Gazelam]

I know that if a person prays with real intent, it works exactly as promised. I had people chase us down after receiving an answer to their prayer, asking if we would baptise them.

It worked for me also.

Did they tell you about the great prophecy of your arrival? I am sure the story grows in the telling.

I believe it was an Elder Young I was serving with at the time, in Edinburgh. A very intelligent and wonderful Mother of two and her children. And to top it off, she was fed a diet of anti Mormon material before her baptism, but stood against it because God himself had told her the church was true.

[_harmony]

I know that if a person prays with real intent, it works exactly as promised. I had people chase us down after receiving an answer to their prayer, asking if we would baptise them.

It worked for me also.

So essentially you're saying that if a person doesn't get the answer you got, they weren't praying with real intent. As if you know what's going on in someone's heart.

Good grief.

[_Dr. Shades]

I believe it was an Elder Young I was serving with at the time, in Edinburgh. A very intelligent and wonderful Mother of two and her children.

How can an Elder be a mother with two children?