Is homosexuality a choice?

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_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

The Nehor wrote:This is often true but why does the man accept that he should marry her? I would argue it's about the child.

Maybe, but it can be bout the child without the government recognizing anything except the fact that they are the parents of that child.

Anyhow, I thought that the man often accepted because of his own culture which tells a man to be responsible (although this is changing), or the law which forces him to take resonsibility (although many are still deadbeats).
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
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_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

Paul Kemp wrote:
Droopy wrote: that puts the lid on some very thorny psychological and philosophical problems that homosexuals would otherwise have to ask themselves.



Are you speaking from personal experience, or do you just make things up as you go along? Or is this little history lesson simply hijacked from Rush Limbaugh's newsletter?


Paul Kemp, welcome. Some great, provocative posts you've got going on here. A bit of advice concerning "Droopy" (a.k.a. "Coggins7"), however. He doesn't ever cite sources---or at least, he hardly ever cites them. Furthermore, he tends never to actually read anything beyond frontpagemag.org, and a handful of other hardcore, borderline racist conservative publications. The fact that his "education," such as it is, has been derived almost exclusively from this kind of drivel, must necessarily render his arguments highly suspect.

Also, you'll notice that he constantly refers to "intellectually serious" discussion---something he seems constitutionally incapable of participating in. Oh, and he has a penchant for pretentious diction and word usage---a result of his inferiority complex.

Finally, I advise you to bait him into admitting that there is no good reason to prohibit homosexuality, and that, in fact, the only reason he thinks it *should* be prohibited is "because Heavenly Father said so." So, while your remarks concerning religion and etc. *do* seem somewhat off-topic and tangential, you're basically right. It does not matter what gay advocates say, or what scientists turn up concerning the "causes" of homosexuality, or whether it is a choice, or whether it is genetic, or what. For "Droopy" and his ilk, it is all a matter of nitpicking the details, which, in the end, he shouldn't care about, since Heavenly Father said so, end of story. I daresay that his focus on the minutia is evidence that he doesn't want to confront the truth about his position, which is that it is based purely in faith and metaphysics, rather than real, empirical evidence and logic.
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Kemp,

Twisted in the head. Eloquent, thoughtful, intellectual, and detailed argument, eh.


I'll try to use more and bigger words in the future.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

I wasn't going to participate on this thread, I've seen these types of topics go around in circles for so long, I doubt that it's productive. Having said that, for those of you who believe/think that homosexuality is a choice...are you saying that gay folks are actually hetero's who choose to engage in homosexual sex and if so...why would they do that?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Paul Kemp
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Post by _Paul Kemp »

Gazelam wrote:Kemp,

Twisted in the head. Eloquent, thoughtful, intellectual, and detailed argument, eh.


I'll try to use more and bigger words in the future.


Droopy will thank you. I am more interested in why you think being gay has something to do with a twisted head?
We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.
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_Sethbag
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Post by _Sethbag »

Jersey Girl wrote:I wasn't going to participate on this thread, I've seen these types of topics go around in circles for so long, I doubt that it's productive. Having said that, for those of you who believe/think that homosexuality is a choice...are you saying that gay folks are actually hetero's who choose to engage in homosexual sex and if so...why would they do that?


Isn't it obvious why? Because Satan told them to. Duh.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Droopy
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Post by _Droopy »

Paul Kemp, welcome. Some great, provocative posts you've got going on here. A bit of advice concerning "Droopy" (a.k.a. "Coggins7"), however. He doesn't ever cite sources---or at least, he hardly ever cites them. Furthermore, he tends never to actually read anything beyond frontpagemag.org, and a handful of other hardcore, borderline racist conservative publications. The fact that his "education," such as it is, has been derived almost exclusively from this kind of drivel, must necessarily render his arguments highly suspect.




I *have* lied. No doubt I shall lie again. -Mr. Scratch


Hat tip to Nehor for this ready made reply to the above. I've actually made a practice of posting lists of links or book references, some quite extensive, that are then summerily ignored, that many posters here criticze for my having done in the first place (googling...), or make clear they are not going to read anyway.

As to references for my claims made here, I'll work on that, and post such as soon as I feel like it.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Post by _Droopy »

he tends never to actually read anything beyond frontpagemag.org, and a handful of other hardcore, borderline racist conservative publications. The fact that his "education," such as it is, has been derived almost exclusively from this kind of drivel, must necessarily render his arguments highly suspect.



Letting pass for the moment the clear character assassinatinal aspect of the above, I herewith challenge the anonymous Mr. Scratch to produce a single sentence or paragraph from an article, op-ed, symposium, or interview on Frontpagemag.com (started and maintained by David Horowitz, a life long civil rights activist, among his other interests) that could in any plausible manner be interpreted as racist, borderline or of any other kind.

Failing that, Scratch should, yet again, retreat to his wet log and prepare for his next nocturnal excursion into the gaseous slander of those he disagrees with.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Post by _Droopy »

Finally, I advise you to bait him into admitting that there is no good reason to prohibit homosexuality,


I know of no movement abroad that proposes the prohibition of homosexuality, whatever that might entail.


and that, in fact, the only reason he thinks it *should* be prohibited is "because Heavenly Father said so."


Which is, given the source (Heavenly Father), a perfectly good reason to oppose homosexuality in its own right. However, since Scratch does not believe in Heavenly Father or his authority, all is moot.

So, while your remarks concerning religion and etc. *do* seem somewhat off-topic and tangential, you're basically right. It does not matter what gay advocates say, or what scientists turn up concerning the "causes" of homosexuality, or whether it is a choice, or whether it is genetic, or what.


1. The brain sciences have "turned up" precisely nothing regarding the "causes" of homosexuality. They have turned up pretty much what they have turned up in other areas, such as the addictions: there are predispositions and biases, of subtle conplexity, that have a genetic or biological origin. The political weight of such knowledge is exactly zero.

2. Gay advocates have no better knowledge then such scientists, and, of course, have a vested interest in promoting the biological determinist argument as this best serves the cause of identity politics and the cult of victimology that is its continuing nuclear option in our present political climate.


For "Droopy" and his ilk, it is all a matter of nitpicking the details, which, in the end, he shouldn't care about, since Heavenly Father said so, end of story. I daresay that his focus on the minutia is evidence that he doesn't want to confront the truth about his position, which is that it is based purely in faith and metaphysics, rather than real, empirical evidence and logic.


Faith in the rightness of homosexual behavior and its culture is as much metaphysical as any other form of "faith" (not understood in an a strictly LDS sense, obviously). Science, again, has nothing to say regarding the origins of homosexuality as to its "cause" any more than it has much to say about the origins of musical or mechanical aptitudes, or why one person gravitates to one religion, one to another, or one leans to the left or to the right politically.

Scatch, likes the namesake of his screen name, and like so many others who follow him, is really afraid of free agency. The rage for genetic determinism has a long pedigree, and is simply the most recent manifestation of the perennial effort to deligitimize the concept of choice and place much of our behavior outside the boundaries of individual volition.

Monson is right. Sin wears the mask of tolerance, but, one might add, tolerance dances to the tune of determinism. What is determined and beyond human control cannot be judged. It cannot be critiqued or analyzed, and no discriminations or judgments can be made, in an ethical or moral context.

Its all so convenient, really.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

Droopy wrote:What is determined and beyond human control cannot be judged. It cannot be critiqued or analyzed, and no discriminations or judgments can be made, in an ethical or moral context.

Actually, I think one can make a good case that that which is indeterministic cannot be judged, critiqued or analyzed. I think that which is determined is easier to judge and punish. Maybe you cannot help but to do action X, however I also cannot help but to judge you for doing action X. It's a self-defeating defense in my opinion.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
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