President Hinckley, MDB, and Social conduct

[_Ray A]

He actually grew 3 inches while he was on his mission.

Well I've heard about "when I grow up I want to be a missionary", but this is the first time I've heard "when I go on a mission I want to grow up".

[_Yoda]

And, I'm afraid being married to me has contributed to his girth.

I hope and pray Kimberly Ann reads this....

[_solomarineris]

Sorry that I was little harsh Lamanite,
Just take it to your heart to be your own master, just for a day, then few days...
It feels incredibly good, not having to serve nobody.
Can you imagine the power of being in control?
That is how the LDS hierarchy think&act.
You have choice, not to serve just because you have to.
I know, you are a very nice nice guy.
You are being used, blatantly at that....
Think about thing that you will never experience, ever feel.
Just because what your archaic faith dictates.
Sorry, it is a little harsh, but it is the fact.
Peace.

LOL...this is the most condescending, presumptuous response I've ever gotten. Funny part is that I think your heart is well meaning.

Thanks Solo

Big UP!

Lamanite

So, you're not gonna try, r u?
Well, it is your loss.
But you know why.
THERE WAS NOT A FRICCKIN SINGLE DAY YOU DID NOT HAVE A BOSS OVER YOU.
PERIOD!
PLEASE, TRY THIS ONCE....
You are the best.
Your brain fires trillions of messages, healthy messages, full of logic.
YOU DO NOT NEED A MASTER.
i disclose u a secret here:::
Four 1/2 Billion years of this Planet's life there was never a single intelligent being like you.
Use it.
Take Charge of your life.

You have the choice of being Yourself.
or a sheep.

[_Droopy]

Can't this all be done with some civility.

The answer, Lamanite, is, unfortunately, no.

I've cut my posting here down to probably one good day out of two to three weeks at a time for the following reasons:

1. Unlike (as you pointed out about yourself) the manner in which I would most likely handle criticisms of the Church as normally encountered here in person, the general demeanor of the board (which is, for all intents and purposes, similar to the demeanor found on literally all other anti and exmo boards of a similar hue), my approach quickly became laced with a much more personal, sarcastic, and demeaning approach to a number of posters here that would be rather eye opening to those who know me personally. In other words, I, to some extent, began to mirror the general board population itself.

I like doing apologetics, but I've found over time the anti-Mormon and, in particular, exmo environment to be, in the main, toxic to the kind of discourse in which serious or productive apologetics could be taken in hand.

2. I'm at the point at which I'm beginning to seriously flirt with the possibility that LDS apologetics has, for all intents and purposes, run its course. There will always be room, of course, for defense of the Church when it is misrepresented and attacked, but those committed to attacking and misrepresenting it, such as those who created this forum and who form the active nucleus of its population, are not amenable to rational or civil argument, which is why this board, and others of a similar kind, are as they are.

The EV anti-Mormon polemical culture of thirty years ago, when I first encountered anti-Mormon literature, was little different.

3. The psychological dynamics of the ex-Mormon mentality quickly become more interesting than the substance of the criticisms offered, because absent rational discussion, the motivations and psychology driving the criticisms begins looming large as a template for any attempt to understand the vicious baiting, calumny, and, in all frankness, raving that goes on in forums such as this and which all too often passes for dialog.

For me, if I simply cannot take criticisms seriously and when I perceive that which is sacred to me being intellectually raped, my response tends toward sarcastic humor, parody, and personal retorts. I found the only way I could limit this kind of responding was to much more severely limit my participation here.

Either that, or one has to pick one's fights very carefully. But in a fever swamp, one can swat individual mosquito or use a mosquito net, the point being that swatting individual mosquitos becomes very annoying very quickly. The net is only an inconvenience.

[_solomarineris]

1. Unlike (as you pointed out about yourself) the manner in which I would most likely handle criticisms of the Church as normally encountered here in person, the general demeanor of the board (which is, for all intents and purposes, similar to the demeanor found on literally all other anti and exmo boards of a similar hue), my approach quickly became laced with a much more personal, sarcastic, and demeaning approach to a number of posters here that would be rather eye opening to those who know me personally. In other words, I, to some extent, began to mirror the general board population itself.

I think you left here & similar boards because the kitchen got too hot and you couldn't handle it.
Exmo demeanor of sarcasm, disrespect will follow you regardless of where you might be going to discuss LDS religion & Doctrine, because those claims can never be proven unless accompanied by some solid evidence.
To my knowledge very few educated people ridicule Hawking because he believes in Black Holes. Plate Tectonics, Star Formation, the age of Universe is widely accepted except by some lunatic fundies.
Science is ridiculed too but they don't pack & run, do they?

[Guest]

My problem with the church is that I see what it could be, and I am continually disappointed at how short it falls. it was a great idea that has suffered almost from the beginning from the arrogance and greed of the men in charge. I reserve my contempt for only a few: Joseph, Brigham, and Joseph F. Smith. Some I am ambivalent about; some I admire.

I am impatient with almost all of the culture, and disheartened at the Pharisees who see themselves as Saints, from the top of the heirarchy to the bottom of the food chain. I, at least, am well aware of my faults and shortcomings. Changes need to be made in order for the church to be what it should be in the world we live in now. But as long as we have the leadership we presently have, we will continue to be considerably less than we could be. And it breaks my heart.

Exhibit 'A'. This is the classic form of apostasy as found in the Church among a subset of dissidents who leave the Church intellectually but don't actually leave it, in a legal or physical sense, because they seek to bore from within in order to remake in it their own image. Harmony is the classic example of this form (more famous examples would be Hutchinson, Quinn, Tungate etc.). They stay within the Church therefore, playing the TBM without but harboring virtually no support for Church teachings, counsel, or its leadership within. I think it no accident that wearing this mask in the LDS public while taking it off beyond TBM earshot and in forums such as this creates anger, resentment, and deep intellectual and psychological dyspepsia.

Let's notice some salient features of the form:

My problem with the church is that I see what it could be, and I am continually disappointed at how short it falls.

The first feature that should be noticed is that, from this perspective, this is not Christ's Church but one individual's (in this case, Harmony's, whoever she is) or group of individual's. It is our church and it can be molded and shaped, as the Israelites golden calf, in our own image or according to our own perceptions of what the Church should be grounded in our perception of what God should be like grounded in our perceptions of how we desire the universe to be. We utterly, from the outset, reject any concept of religion that claims that religion to be revealed and that in revealed religion we can be taught things that we don't know about ourselves, God, and the universe.

We reject the proposition that perhaps we do not know how the Church, the world, and we ourselves should be, and that, perhaps, the Church, its scriptures, and the knowledge it contains can tell us something we do not know about our existence and that we need to be taught. Harmony wants to teach the Church, but this attitude implies that Harmony, or any of us, have something to teach it. But does she? Upon what basis? Upon what preassumptions?

I am impatient with almost all of the culture, and disheartened at the Pharisees who see themselves as Saints, from the top of the heirarchy to the bottom of the food chain.

And here is, of course, the crux of the matter; the all pervading sanctimonious narcissism in which our Harmony looks down upon the great unwashed masses of groveling, petty LDS humanity and finds it wanting when contrasted to her own lofty and enlightened consciousness. How Harmony arrived to such Olympian heights, heights from which she may critique the Gospel, yet escape the Gospel's critique, she has yet to tell us, but one suspects an origin less loftier spheres than those claimed by the restored Gospel.

Changes need to be made in order for the church to be what it should be in the world we live in now.

This is a plea for the Church to conform itself to the surrounding culture (to become, in essence, politically and socially correct), which, of course, would utterly destroy any legitimate purpose the Church might have had for its existence, but which would create a new purpose for the Church-the one those like Harmony are actually seeking-that of providing a religious or quasi-religious imprimatur for present cultural trends and assumptions, as well as their own lifestyles and personal predilections in various areas. This is really nothing more than the religification of present socio-cultural conditions in the name of preserving and buffering them from the critique it is otherwise the Gospel's to provides of them. The Church then is co-opted by the culture, and is hence destroyed.

I don't think any should be fooled by the "it breaks my heart" comment. Harmony's is not a mission of mercy, but of extirpation.

[_Droopy]

I think you left here & similar boards because the kitchen got too hot and you couldn't handle it.

Yes, yes, of course...

Exmo demeanor of sarcasm, disrespect will follow you regardless of where you might be going to discuss LDS religion & Doctrine, because those claims can never be proven unless accompanied by some solid evidence.
To my knowledge very few educated people ridicule Hawking because he believes in Black Holes. Plate Tectonics, Star Formation, the age of Universe is widely accepted except by some lunatic fundies.
Science is ridiculed too but they don't pack & run, do they?

Its precisely facile, Romper Room positivism of this kind that is part of my critique of this board and the exmo world in general Sol, and all you have done here is further cemented the painfully obvious.

[_Ray A]

They stay within the Church therefore, playing the TBM without but harboring virtually no support for Church teachings, counsel, or its leadership within. I think it no accident that wearing this mask in the LDS public while taking it off beyond TBM earshot and in forums such as this creates anger, resentment, and deep intellectual and psychological dyspepsia.

Don't become too bitter. It's not going to do you any good.

[_Droopy]

Jesus posts here? Wow! I mean, WOW! And we all know that Jesus treated people a whole lot better than some of our Mormons treat others. A whole lot better.

Why would Jesus need to post here when we have you Harmony? After all, his Church should be sitting at your feet learning words of wisdom, so why would he need to come here himself when his own annointed servant is already on the job?

[_Droopy]

They stay within the Church therefore, playing the TBM without but harboring virtually no support for Church teachings, counsel, or its leadership within. I think it no accident that wearing this mask in the LDS public while taking it off beyond TBM earshot and in forums such as this creates anger, resentment, and deep intellectual and psychological dyspepsia.

Don't become too bitter. It's not going to do you any good.

I'm well beyond any desire to discourse with you Ray, and this response above is a wonderful indication of just why.