Is the World Better or Worse?

[_Inconceivable]

City of Zion, exact date unknown; Western hemisphere, Nephite Civilization, 33 A.D to 133 A.D.; Millenium, any hemisphere, Any time in that thousand year period.

So you wanna be a fictional character?

I'll grant your wish, Nehor.

hold on, here we go...

(boink)

There. Hey, let me know what it's like being Turboman's sidekick, Booster.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Jason,

I have no doubt that my way in life has been much easier due to the fact I was born in a white middle class, albeit lower middle class family.

Growing up in SLC suburbs probably was not too bad.

My life has not been tough though I think I have had to work hard.

I never said it was easy for many many unfortunate individuals.

I never said it was not hard, even a hundred or a thousand times harder than what I had.

Not once.

That was not my point Jason. My point was that there are those who don't even have the understanding or knowledge or awareness that there is another way, or what it takes to get there, or the motivation or fortitude to make changes not because they are lazy but because they have had very unfortunate circumstances... In other words, it is not just a choice. No one is saying, "hmmm I like not having food or health care. Yeah, this is great... I don't want to have a home and living in my car is great. It is fine not having food for my children. Yeah no problem."

It is not about being lazy it is about not knowing, not having an example, not seeing what is possible. It is about not having the capability in many situations, and not even a sense of how to move forward. Without an example, care, inspiration, or some vision people are often lost.

I just REALLY don't like it when I hear the statement poor people are just lazy or choose to be poor. I just don't see it. If they don't have a strong work ethic it just may be because they have never seen it, they don't know what it even is. Their example has been on of trying to get by. There is no knowledge of what it takes to be successful. I've seen this over and over and over.

Where is Roger when I need him? He has written a whole book about this and it is fabulous!!



~td~

[_The Nehor]

City of Zion, exact date unknown; Western hemisphere, Nephite Civilization, 33 A.D to 133 A.D.; Millenium, any hemisphere, Any time in that thousand year period.

So you wanna be a fictional character?

I'll grant your wish, Nehor.

hold on, here we go...

(boink)

There. Hey, let me know what it's like being Turboman's sidekick, Booster.

Dang....if they are fictional then the fictional characters from them need to stop contacting me.

[_Jason Bourne]

From a "macro" level, the world is far, far, far better than it has ever been since.

If anyone disagrees, please tell me which hemisphere and century you would rather have lived in?

You only get to pick the hemisphere and era within 100 years. You would then be magically transported there and statistically assigned to a "life", with your gender, nationality, religion, physical condition and social class determined by the demographics of that era. You may end up being a king, but the odds are you'll end up shoveling manure. You will also be subject to infant mortality rates, with a chance that your experiment will end immediately.

There simply hasn't been another time where a baby had better chances of being born into a "successful" life (however you define "succuess"), or even living past the age of 5.

By any measure, we are fortunate to live at the greatest time ever. There are certainly imperfections and room for improvement in today's world, but we've come a long way.

Your point about mortality rates is very valid. Looking at myself it seems that natural selection would have weeded me out a long time ago. I was a rather sickly kid. Lot's of pneumonia. Had pleurisy as a teen-and let me tell you that was pain like I have not had since. Had cancer in my mid age. Had a problem with my parathyroid a year or two ago and long term that can be fatal as well. All sorts of things could have killed me off.

[_cinepro]

If anyone disagrees, please tell me which hemisphere and century you would rather have lived in?

You only get to pick the hemisphere and era within 100 years. You would then be magically transported there and statistically assigned to a "life", with your gender, nationality, religion, physical condition and social class determined by the demographics of that era. You may end up being a king, but the odds are you'll end up shoveling manure. You will also be subject to infant mortality rates, with a chance that your experiment will end immediately.\

Three Choices:

City of Zion, exact date unknown; Western hemisphere, Nephite Civilization, 33 A.D to 133 A.D.; Millenium, any hemisphere, Any time in that thousand year period.

If I die in childbirth, so be it.

Sorry, but even for the City of Zion, you can only specify the hemisphere.

Same for "Nephite Civilization". And Brant Gardner has theorized that the reports of peace and tranquility in that time frame are exaggerated, (and the geography likewise limited) to the point that it might not make much difference. And even given the utopian state of some of the people, would you still want to live in a time before penicillin?

Millenium = future, which only makes my point.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Cinepro,

From a "macro" level, the world is far, far, far better than it has ever been since.

If anyone disagrees, please tell me which hemisphere and century you would rather have lived in?

You only get to pick the hemisphere and era within 100 years. You would then be magically transported there and statistically assigned to a "life", with your gender, nationality, religion, physical condition and social class determined by the demographics of that era. You may end up being a king, but the odds are you'll end up shoveling manure. You will also be subject to infant mortality rates, with a chance that your experiment will end immediately.

There simply hasn't been another time where a baby had better chances of being born into a "successful" life (however you define "succuess"), or even living past the age of 5.

By any measure, we are fortunate to live at the greatest time ever. There are certainly imperfections and room for improvement in today's world, but we've come a long way.

I have often thought about this and as a woman, there is NO time in history I would prefer... I think we have a long way to go to figure out how to manage nevertheless, certainly this is a much better time than ever before.

I think about the world even fifty years ago and how we have progressed in so many ways.... definitely this is the best time so far, in my opinion.

~td~

[_Jason Bourne]

That was not my point Jason. My point was that there are those who don't even have the understanding or knowledge or awareness that there is another way, or what it takes to get there, or the motivation or fortitude to make changes not because they are lazy but because they have had very unfortunate circumstances... In other words, it is not just a choice. No one is saying, "hmmm I like not having food or health care. Yeah, this is great... I don't want to have a home and living in my car is great. It is fine not having food for my children. Yeah no problem."

It is not about being lazy it is about not knowing, not having an example, not seeing what is possible. It is about not having the capability in many situations, and not even a sense of how to move forward. Without an example, care, inspiration, or some vision people are often lost.

I just REALLY don't like it when I hear the statement poor people are just lazy or choose to be poor. I just don't see it. If they don't have a strong work ethic it just may be because they have never seen it, they don't know what it even is. Their example has been on of trying to get by. There is no knowledge of what it takes to be successful. I've seen this over and over and over.

There may be a small few that fall into what you describe. But unless they cannot read, have no access to radio or TV I am skeptical that there have absolutely no way of knowing or finding out about programs and opportunities to help them. Least in my state if you walk in to DSS you are going to be inundated with so much information and be assigned someone to work with you that will help you find all you need to know about ways to dig out of your hole.

And yes really TD, some people don't want to do what it takes to change. That is a fact. Why do we need to hire illegals to take jobs some of our citizens won't. Why would some rather be on welfare than take a job they think does not pay enough. Heck I would work just for my dignity.

Sure there are those so bound down by their circumstances that there is little hope and almost no way out. But I think this is a small minority. I think for most there are large opportunities for the taking if someone will grab them.

[_cinepro]

I have often thought about this and as a woman, there is NO time in history I would prefer...

~td~

I think most people who might long for "the good ol' days" imagine themselves as being a wealthy white man, or some fancifully imagined "character" from a romanticized version of a past that never existed.

[_truth dancer]

I think for most there are large opportunities for the taking if someone will grab them.

Absolutely there are amazing opportunities. No question about this.

The problem is not opportunity it is helping people access them, and helping people see there is a better way.

Take a woman I recently spoke to. She wasliving in a very run down trailer but got kicked out and is basically on the street right now; she has no car, no computer, no education. She found a job (sort of) where she is paid minimally but can't afford a phone. Her pay is about enough to barely live. So, how is she supposed to get to DSS? How is she supposed to get anything? She has a low IQ and no support.

I think she is very typical of the people I see living in poverty. Those with a TV, cell phone, computer, and car are not, in my mind living in poverty.

~td~

[_Jersey Girl]

And yes TD, I have met and there are those who could take opportunities that seem unwilling to do so. Many people. Yes there are people whop are just damn lazy at times and don't want to work hard to get ahead. How many of the poor are like that? I have no idea. Some are. Some are not.

As for your example, yep that is pretty horrible. And I hope someone helps her. Maybe you will or someone else. I think for many help of some sort is there.

Sorry but none of this convinces me that there are not abundant opportunities for most people if they will take them. Hard? Hell yea. Really hard for some and even many. Sure.

But that is life. And nobody in America needs to be bound down by shackles of poverty. Sure many need help. Have I argues they should not be helped? Nope. Not once. Just that those who think that the poor are stuck being poor is in most cases not the case if someone wants to work to better themselves.

Jason...JASON...what you are missing is that while help is out there, many aren't even aware of what is available to them. They are ISOLATED, Jason, by their poverty. It's all well and good to champion the cause of people who want to work hard to better themselves, but what if you were them (or the girl in TD's post) and DIDN'T KNOW WHERE TO GO?

(Not yelling at you, just emphasizing)

Editing now: Jason, did you happen to read the story I told in the Old Testament Birds/Bees forum about my Aunt? Those were among my strongest childhood images. I'll continue a bit here. Following from age 9 and forward *I* was raised up in relative poverty. Not as severe as what TD described, but economically disadvantaged all the same. The thought of going to college never crossed my mind. It wasn't even in the cards for me and I knew it. I didn't go to college until I was an adult, married and with children. Once I got the chance, I took an opportunity to do for someone else what wasn't done for me. Me, I'm a fighter. Can't tell, right? ;-) But for years and years, I didn't know what I could do or how to do it.

I'll tell you why TD is ranting. It's PASSION. It's passion for people who have no one to tell them how to get ahead in order to improve their life chances. For people who have no role models who know how to get ahead and who can lead them. No one to guide them and no one in their life to transmit the message that they are worth anything. Do you know what it's like to feel like you're worth nothing? It takes a whole lot of inner strength and determination to make something of yourself. More than that, it takes someone to mentor you, to feedback to you that you ARE worth something, that you DO have talent, that you CAN do what you set your mind to. There are people who live isolated lives, who are feeling like total crap, who have no one in their lives who tells them otherwise. People who don't know where to go or HOW to go.

That's why people like TD rant, Jason, she longs for people like this to intersect her life because she can do for them what others have not done or been able to do, she can build them up and show them what's possible. This is why people like me become advocates for children, Jason. Why I sit on councils for children at risk, why I take the time to serve families beyond teaching their children how to count and write. There are a multitude of services out there for people who know where they are and how to access them. The problem for many is that they simply DON'T KNOW.

I have seen 3 year olds with a mouth full of crowns, Jason, whose parents didn't know better than to let them drink fruit drinks in their baby bottles. Children who have no books in their homes and no one to read to them. Children whose parents are abandoning them to grandparents (do you know what that does to a child's self esteem once they figure out they got dumped by their own mother or father?) And I have seen FAR too many parents (not always just mothers) who feel like pieces of crap because they've been told that and treated like that all their lives. It's not easy to find the strength and determination inside of yourself when your insides are EMPTY, Jason.

Did you see JAK's remark "Wealth transfers up"? I would add to that "Poverty shoves you down". It pervades every part of one's life. Finances, nutrition, education, access to health care, prenatal care and goes around in cycles that are passed down from parent to child. You are right, the help is out there but you have to KNOW it's out there and when you live a life in isolation, you have no clue what is out there and a better life is what others have. Not you.

I will stop ranting now...don't count on it though.