As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.

[_Darth J]

With that, it seems we're going to have to agree to disagree on this. We've reached different conclusions. We've heard each other's points. I don't see any stellar reasoning for me to accept your view and I'm sure the opposite is true. IMpasse...agree to disagree I guess.

I feel so blessed to have a modern-day Aristotle among us, who feels that a conclusion drawn from evidence and denominational loyalty are on equal intellectual footing.

Thank you for sharing your enlightened wisdom, stemelbow.

i want to [edited for Terrestrial Forum] until you collapse from exhaustion,
DJ

[_stemelbow]

When you say someone wouldn't lie, and then you are pointed to actual lies the person in question told, I wouldn't say they were unrelated. I understood DJ's point. Maybe you didn't.

It appears you missed mine then, and perhaps DJ did too. I didn't say someone wouldn't lie. I would say he probably did lie for the case in question. I'm over it though.

[_Darth J]

Well, he would certainly never lie to the Salt Lake County district attorney's office about the extent of his interactions with Mark Hoffman.

No, lying is not the kind of thing he would do very often.

nice unrelated links, DJ. All I can say it oh boy, but don't worry I'm sure you'll find your supporters here.

This all just seems to I wish to fight you tooth and nail to me, DJ. But perhaps you'll get a taker around here. I don't know.

You are the one who put his character for truthfulness at issue, stemelbow. You made it relevant.

imagining you wearing latex,
DJ

[_Runtu]

It appears you missed mine then, and perhaps DJ did too. I didn't say someone wouldn't lie. I would say he probably did lie for the case in question. I'm over it though.

Then why did you say the citations were unrelated?

Glad you're over it, though. :-)

[_stemelbow]

I feel so blessed to have a modern-day Aristotle among us, who feels that a conclusion drawn from evidence and denominational loyalty are on equal intellectual footing.

DJ, no doubt your game to demonize stem in the eyes of the critcs has worked well for you here. And I'm sure you're gong to stick with that which works. But for anyone who really wishes to discuss, listen and communicate civilly or reasonably, I simply do not feel a conclusion drawn from evidence and denominational loyalty are on equal intellectual footing. DJ made that up in one of his many efforts to speak for me so he can appear superior to me in the eyes of the others, I'm guessing. I guess I'll just have to call it like I see it from now on.

[_Themis]

I simply disagree with your assessment here. Its must be due to our personal biases which have made us reach different conclusions. I've tried to be fair here. But I simply don't think his messing up in an interview necessarily equates to intentionally lying (I've chosen to categorize it as unintentional lying).

I have no idea what unintentional lying would be. Lying is knowing what you are saying is not true. The very definition is that it is intentional.

neither do i assume that his mistake need be something he apologize to the masses for. As it is, repentence is personal and its up to him to figure out if he needed to apologize to the masses or not...not you. Such would be LDS teaching on the matter.

Then you do not understand LDS teachings about repentance when it come to restitution. I suggest you read up on it. You can start here http://LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=51969daac5d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

We've reached different conclusions.

You admitted he lied. We both agree on that. Lying is intentional. Remember It's not a lie if YOU believe it. Grosskreutz

[_stemelbow]

You are the one who put his character for truthfulness at issue, stemelbow. You made it relevant.

imagining you wearing latex,
DJ

Okay. that's cool. Then go ahead and assume you are right that he must have lied about hoffman and all that junk. I simply don't wish to go down that trail. I take it back...I don't mind if people see him as one who lies all the time or not.

[_Darth J]

I feel so blessed to have a modern-day Aristotle among us, who feels that a conclusion drawn from evidence and denominational loyalty are on equal intellectual footing.

DJ, no doubt your game to demonize stem in the eyes of the critcs has worked well for you here. And I'm sure you're gong to stick with that which works. But for anyone who really wishes to discuss, listen and communicate civilly or reasonably, I simply do not feel a conclusion drawn from evidence and denominational loyalty are on equal intellectual footing. DJ made that up in one of his many efforts to speak for me so he can appear superior to me in the eyes of the others, I'm guessing. I guess I'll just have to call it like I see it from now on.

stemelbow, there is a certain "coals to Newcastle" aspect in trying to make you look like a foolish troll.

thinking of you naked,
DJ

[_stemelbow]

Then why did you say the citations were unrelated?

Glad you're over it, though. :-)

Because they don't have anything to do with the topic of the thread. But, I get his point more clearly now. He wishes to discuss whether Hinckley lied frequently or not. Even if he lied three or four times, it hardly means he lies a lot. And I don't wish to discuss every instance in which DJ thinks he lied. Not really something I"m interested in.

[_Quasimodo]

I get the perception that it causes. Mistake. Oopssie. Perhaps he's still kicking himself up in heaven. I don't know.

It wasn't an "oopssie". It was an intentional attempt to misdirect. He knew that this belief would be denounced by most Christians and tried to hide it. If he was a true believer, shouldn't he have been proud of the Church's doctrines?

PR over piety. I don't think he was a TBM.