HELLO, I AM NEW HERE

[_rich kelsey]

Dr W.

Thank You!

It's good to know that you are here.

[_Simon Belmont]

Rich,

I was not referring to you as one of the belligerent idiots. I was referring to people like Chap, Joseph, Polygamy Porter, and Schreech.

[_Chap]

Rich,

I was not referring to you as one of the belligerent idiots. I was referring to people like Chap, Joseph, Polygamy Porter, and Schreech.

[_rich kelsey]

Simon Belmont,

Since I have not heard from you in a PM or E-mail I quess you and I can discuss this issue here. However, I think it is only fair to let others join in.

We were talking about a letter I mentioned of a person who was still in the LDS Church yet lost faith in the Church's credibility:

Here is the letter:

http://richkelsey.org/letter_from_an_ac ... ber_of.htm

You said,

Rich, come on. The Internet is full of those "insider" letters. Anti-Mormons use them all the time to appear as though they have some credibility.

Ok, sure there is a chance that the letter is fake.

Yet, it sounds so much like countless stories which I have read at Ex-Mormon Forums over the last two years that I think it is legitimate.

And, I know people at Ex-Mormon Forums, some are good Christians, and others have lost faith in Christianity. The issue these people have in common is not that they wanted to sin; but rather that they wanted the truth.

A lot of men and women who are zealous for the faith end up digging deeper into their religion. They had pure motives, yet what they found in their search was shocking.

Here is a quote from Bushman concerning this:

"Introduction" by Richard Bushman

The following is Richard Bushman's introduction paper to the 2008 summer seminar, “Joseph Smith and His Critics,” given July 29, 2008.

Increasingly teachers and church leaders at all levels are approached by Latter-day Saints who have lost confidence in Joseph Smith and the basic miraculous events of church history. They doubt the First Vision, the Book of Mormon, many of Joseph’s revelations, and much besides. They fall into doubt after going on the Internet and finding shocking information about Joseph Smith based on documents and facts they had never heard before. A surprising number had not known about Joseph Smith’s plural wives. They are set back by differences in the various accounts of the First Vision. They find that Egyptologists do not translate the Abraham manuscripts the way Joseph Smith did, making it appear that the Book of Abraham was a fabrication. When they come across this information in a critical book or read it on one of the innumerable critical Internet sites, they feel as if they had been introduced to a Joseph Smith and a Church history they had never known before. They undergo an experience like viewing the famous picture of a beautiful woman who in a blink of an eye turns into an old hag. Everything changes. What are they to believe?

Often church leaders, parents, and friends, do not understand the force of this alternate view. Not knowing how to respond, they react defensively. They are inclined to dismiss all the evidence as anti-Mormon or of the devil. Stop reading these things if they upset you so much, the inquirer is told. Or go back to the familiar formula: scriptures, prayer, church attendance.

The troubled person may have been doing all of these things sincerely, perhaps even desperately. He or she feels the world is falling apart. Everything these inquirers put their trust in starts to crumble. They want guidance more than ever in their lives, but they don’t seem to get it. The facts that have been presented to them challenge almost everything they believe. People affected in this way may indeed stop praying; they don’t trust the old methods because they feel betrayed by the old system. Frequently they are furious. On their missions they fervently taught people about Joseph Smith without knowing any of these negative facts. Were they taken advantage of? Was the Church trying to fool them for its own purposes?

These are deeply disturbing questions. They shake up everything. Should I stay in the Church? Should I tell my family? Should I just shut up and try to get along? Who can help me?

At this point, these questioners go off in various directions. Some give up on the Church entirely. They find another religion or, more likely these days, abandon religion altogether. Without their familiar Mormon God, they are not sure there is any God at all....

____________________________________________

Richard L. Bushman is a Professor Emeritus of History, Columbia University, the current holder of the Howard W. Hunter visiting professorship in Mormon studies at Claremont Graduate University, and author of the recent biography Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling.

[_Yoda]

Hey, Rich, I think something happened with the URL on the letter.

It is not coming up.

Can you try reposting?

[_rich kelsey]

Hey, Rich, I think something happened with the URL on the letter.

It is not coming up.

Can you try reposting?

http://richkelsey.org/letter_from_an_ac ... ber_of.htm

I could post the whole letter but it is long and I don't know the rules about that?

[_stemelbow]

Hi rich,

Welcome to the board. You can have some fun, but just a piece of advice. Don't take things too seriously. My goodness, if you do, you'll get all caught up in things like the Will Schryver messes, which amounts to many threads around here. To be honest, it can be fun but it takes some serious effort.

I'm active, faithful LDS. If I had to guess, it seems some people think I"m nice, but also think I"m an idiot. Some think I'm playing nice, it seems, so I can trick them into being LDS or something. Some seem to think I'm them from years ago and I'll turn into them by leaving the church and all that with time. And others still seem to genuinely read what I write and think about it from my perspective (these are the few posters that I most enjoy reading myself, as it turns out).

Black and white? Yep there's tons of that here, but with some its not so simple.

Anyway, just trying to be a little helpful. Enjoy your stay.

[_Yoda]

Hey, Rich, I think something happened with the URL on the letter.

It is not coming up.

Can you try reposting?

http://richkelsey.org/letter_from_an_ac ... ber_of.htm

I could post the whole letter but it is long and I don't know the rules about that?

There is no rule limiting the length of a post. You are welcome to copy/paste the letter if you wish to.

[_rich kelsey]

OK:

Letter from an active member of the Mormon Church —


Dear Elder (Name):

As one who suffers from within, I write this letter to inform you of the magnitude of a growing problem. I am fully active, fully worthy, and fully apostate. I remain active solely for the sake of immediate and extended family unity, and to preserve my marriage. The fact that I cannot act upon my knowledge about fraudulent church history and doctrine has created a considerable dilemma for both the church and myself. The church is filled with people like me, and if you do not address this dilemma, the church will collapse from within. This letter, therefore, is an appeal for your consideration of my personal dilemma, and to serve as a witness against you if you fail to act.

I am writing this letter anonymously because I fear the power of your unrighteous dominion. It is not acceptable for you to claim that you personally would not wish for those like me to suffer or fear. The “Strengthening Church Members Committee” has proven its reach in the true style of “1984 Thought-Crime” investigations and “Ministry (councils) of Love” discipline. Yes, I fear you, I loath your tactics and I forcibly serve you. If you doubt my claim of forced servitude, then you would be wise to withhold your assessment until the end of this letter. I am writing with the futile hope that you (or anyone) will care enough to resolve this growing and unavoidable tragedy within the church; the tragedy of those who know the truth and cannot act upon it without destroying their families.

I come from 1837-convert lineage. I grew up in the Mormon Colonies in Mexico; I was hyper-valiant in my youth; I completed reading the full set of scriptures by the age of 16; I had all the missionary discussions and missionary scriptures memorized before even getting my call to serve; I served a very successful mission in Mexico; I attended BYU; I married in the temple; I served in four different bishoprics, high council, stake executive secretary, gospel doctrine instructor, young men’s president, high priest group leader, and various other callings; I was a student of the gospel, and was known for my answers to difficult historical and doctrinal questions; I have attended the temple more than 800 times, and virtually have the whole thing (all ordinances) memorized; I am a set-apart ordinance worker; I am currently serving in three ward and stake callings; IN OTHER WORDS: I deserve your respect, and am not engaged in any unworthy activity, so before you categorize me into some convenient slot, think again.

I have five children, two returned-missionary-temple-married, one attending BYU, and two active in the youth program. My wife and I have lived our nearly 25 years of marriage completely united in our commitment to a gospel oriented home. My wife is one of the most valiant, unquestioning, devoted members you will ever meet. Our happiness in marriage was centered in the gospel. We have faithfully performed all of the home-strengthening practices (FHE, daily prayer and scripture study, etc) throughout our married years. Our children are strong in the church because we as parents gave them that foundation. We are your typical success story.

This changed approximately two years ago. The story about how it changed is long, complicated, and spans years of personal study, personal observation, and experience. Rather than rehearse the entire journey, I will only summarize the end results. Suffice it to say that I have discovered reliable unchallenged facts about church history, church operations, church doctrine, and church culture that have brought me to the undeniable conclusion that the church is not true. Not only is the church not true (meaning that it is not what it claims to be), but the church purposefully withholds (even denies) vital information that would lead ANY thinking person to the same conclusion. Finally, church leaders even boast about the moral and ethical justification for acting this way. This is the behavior pattern of a cult; it is inconsistent with the church’s own articles of faith; and it is the central reason for the growing groundswell of revolt from within. To ignore this fact is the height of arrogance. You are either stupid or you are devious; whichever you choose, you lose.

I have a feeling (since I cannot imagine a different possibility) that you already know about this problem. You already know that the church is not what it claims to be; you already know that Native Americans are not the Lamanites of the Book of Mormon; you already know that the whole story of the Book of Mormon is not accurate or historical or even a translation of gold plates; you already know that the Book of Abraham is not a translation of the papyri that it claims to be; you already know that the first vision account is not reliable or accurate; you already know that church history is a warped version of real history and real history paints a pretty bleak picture of church origins and behavior; you already know that spiritual “special witness” experiences are not what the average member believes them to be; and you already know that as prophets, seers, and revelators, you do not possess any such gifts as they are understood by the average member. You receive and even encourage unqualified trust in your special abilities, and you know very well that those abilities are not special at all. You may be talented administrators, but you are not prophets, seers, and revelators, and you know it. Yet you allow members to revere and honor you as such. You are either self-deceived or you are willing deceivers. You know that members believe and teach that you have had personal physical visitations from Jesus Christ, and you know that you have not had this experience. Yet, you are willing to allow members to perpetuate this myth for unknown but unavoidably dishonest reasons. This is a pattern, not an anomaly. You know you are not what you claim to be (or what church culture teaches about you); and you allow this false perception to continue. What does that say about you and your integrity?

So, after coming to this awful realization that things are not what they claim to be within the church, what are my options? This journey was so disruptive and internally tumultuous that I chose to travel it alone. I was absolutely certain that there were solid faith sustaining answers to each disturbing fact. Finally, after I had absorbed the magnitude of the truth, I tried to share it with my wife. To her horror, she saw that her husband had gone into the unthinkable realm of “apostasy”. At first, she resented me for even looking; then she denied the possibility that any of it could be true; then she tried to stand on the shaky ground that even if it was true it did not lead to the conclusions I had made; finally, she clings to the defensive posture that I cannot be smarter than you (how can so many good men be wrong and her imperfect husband be right?). This is where you come into the picture. This is where the church comes between me and my wife in our marriage relationship. This is where the damage is done in countless other relationships. Do you think that you can escape responsibility for this damage? Do you doubt your complicity in creating this wedge? Can you understand how people like me come to a point of powerless resentment against the church? I suspect that you cannot understand such things, because if you did you would use your influence to make necessary changes.

There is nothing more ironic than the saying that “A man can leave the church, but he can never leave it alone.” The truth is that “A man can leave the church but only if he leaves ‘alone’”, or “A man can leave the church but the church can never leave him alone.” You would gladly split up my family rather than allow my knowledge to draw them away from the church. You have proven such intent in both policy and practice.

I am trapped in the church; of that there can be no doubt. And yet I perceive that you do indeed doubt such an idea. It seems foreign to you that I would claim to be trapped in an institution that glorifies agency. But surely you can see the cultural elements (which you support) that limit my options. Extended family relationships are high-pressure control mechanisms. My leaving the church for doctrinal or historical reasons would have a devastating and disruptive impact on the entire family network. You glorify those who leave their families to join our church and at the same time you demonize those who would leave the church for whatever reason. You stereotype those who obtain damaging “truth” as intellectuals and apostates. You encourage an atmosphere of exclusion against those who have information that would damage faith, even when that faith is founded upon false data.

Your efforts of withholding and denying truth have had the result of destroying personal integrity. I know things that I cannot openly speak about, even with those closest to me. I lie in temple recommend interviews so I can go to the temple to see my own children get married, and because my wife is comforted by the image of a temple worthy husband. I lie to my children when they question an aspect of church history or doctrine, because the truth would place them in the same pressure cooker I am in. I lie to my wife because she finds the truth so disturbing. I lie because telling the truth is more painful than a comforting lie. And I learned to lie from you. You are lying to the membership by your silence (and denial) regarding information that is vital to faith. People base their faith on incorrect information; you know this; and you remain silent. You lie for the same reason that I lie; because people prefer a comforting lie over a disturbing truth. I am trapped here because of the culture you have created, and I am reduced to using the same tactics you use at the expense of personal integrity.

Your understanding of the culture you created and perpetuate through established programs is dismal. You preach adherence to the guidance of the brethren; you promise blessings for obedience to programs and leaders; you build a structure of dependence and hierarchical authoritarianism; you inculcate an environment of conformance without regard to individuality; and you do all of this with the stated intent of blessing and improving lives, relationships and family bonds. Your programs have evolved into a culture with the opposite effect than the one you intended; members feel constantly inadequate regardless of their effort; families pressure struggling children with bad advice that comes from your talks and books; you raise the bar, a blatant slap in the face to those who do not fit within your misguided program. Programs flounder not because of poor execution but because they are poor programs. When such negative results reach your ears, you are saddened that the poor members just do not see the vision; that they cannot learn the vital lessons. It never occurs to you that your inspiration and leadership is the flawed element. Either you are uninspired or uninformed, but your leadership is causing more suffering than blessings. But this is not really about bad programs. Rather, it is about faulty foundations. I do not expect you to acknowledge that the church is not what it claims to be, but I demand that you acknowledge your part in the failures. Stop blaming failure on the members. It is cheap and dishonest.

So, I am angry to the point of despair. I do not expect you to do anything with this information, except try to track me down and deal with me through your secret “committees”. I would resign today if I thought my family could remain intact. But I will continue to coax my family closer to the truth with longsuffering and gentle persuasion, and when they can see the real story without demonizing their father, son, and husband, then I will relish our departure and be rid of you and your unrighteous dominion. Someday I will not be so afraid of your influence, and I will confront your abuse of power directly.

Your success is over. You had a small window of opportunity to be forthcoming and open, and you have missed it. History is against you. Science is against you. TRUTH is against you. As you become more closed and protective, you will appear more ridiculous from the outside. Even though you will probably interpret this result to be “prophecy fulfilled,” the result will be the same. Enjoy your last breath of illusory comfort, because it will not last.

I am not alone. I am part of a growing community of knowledgeable members who will not be silenced for long. You have no idea how to deal with us because you fear our power. You fear it because you know that truth is on our side. I would feel pity for you except for the inexpiable arrogance that you currently display without remorse. The law of the harvest will be your undoing. You have sown seeds of benevolent deception; you shall reap a harvest of faithful rebellion.

Disrespectfully:

Faithful Apostate

[_Droopy]

Now we have been deprived of Droopy, we must do all we can to keep Belmont here and posting for us ...

He don't know me very well, do he?