Bill Hamblin and his "Focussed Discussion"

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_Kishkumen
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Re: Bill Hamblin and his "Focussed Discussion"

Post by _Kishkumen »

George Miller wrote:All the while Hamblin and others want Joseph Smith's revelation to restore ancient customs and practices. Then the modern Saints look at their own revelations and instead see how their Deity touched mind assembles fact and information from their contemporary environment. Expecting the distorted picture they have been presented with, they have no other choice but to assume their own lessons from heaven are inferior.


Unless I am mistaken, you edited a bit while I was composing my response. I wanted to add something to this. One of the most valuable insights of Mormonism and Freemasonry, at least in my view, is that there is something enduring about the human experience that should be celebrated and commemorated regularly, not just in word, but also in symbol and ritual action. Maybe this is what Terryl Givens would have liked to say about the importance of dancing in Mormon culture. In this sense he would be absolutely correct.

If you contrast that concept with what I feel is the unhealthy overemphasis on the new. This might seem like a complete contradiction of what you have said, but stick with me a second. What I am referring to when I speak of the new is a teleological view of progress that is completely cut off from the yang of circular patterns of time. There must be a balance between the two views.

The question is this, however: what ought to be repeated? Mormonism is ancient in its structural devotion to the ancient pattern of celebrating this human meaning-making as rooted in creation and orientation in a cosmic schema that is teleological on one level, and cyclical on another. It is not ancient because Joseph Smith saw the priests of ancient Israel performing the Mormon endowment dressed as LDS initiates dress now. Nibley, I believe, had a view that combined both of these senses of the ancient. His successors seem to me to place too much emphasis on the latter. They look for squares and compasses, certain arm gestures, etc., in ancient art and say, "Voila! The Endowment!"

Some of this confusion may result from Smith's own assumptions and worldview. They need not define how LDS people conceptualize the antiquity of Mormonism forever. I think this modern view of the ancient is very detrimental for Mormons because it sets up false expectations that the discourse of larger society will rip to shreds, as, in fact, it is. I know it sounds like I am playing semantic games here, but my background is in Roman Studies. The Romans loved to talk about their religious conservatism, and how they were bringing back ancient practices that were moribund, etc. Really, they were using the cultural mechanisms in place at the time to innovate in a particular way, about particular cultural objects. This kind of view of "ancient" within a religious context is more workable in Mormonism than the modernist view that struggles to dominate Mormon minds today.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_George Miller
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Re: Bill Hamblin and his "Focussed Discussion"

Post by _George Miller »

Blixa wrote:My own humble area of Mormon studies concerns the early Utah period. But this last year, as I have been tracing out several threads back to earlier times, I've been reading more on Joseph Smith and church origins. What you have laid out here, George, is something that has been coalescing in my own mind. The difference between say, the Kirtland experience, and the notion that spiritual experiences are about "warn[ing] you about traffic jams, or the spider in your shoe..." (a quote from a sincere believer at MDD), is staggering. And more than a little tragic.

I agree with you that the shift is mind-numbing and disturbing. Well said!
_George Miller
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Re: Bill Hamblin and his "Focussed Discussion"

Post by _George Miller »

Kishkumen wrote:Unless I am mistaken, you edited a bit while I was composing my response.

Yep I have a habit of submitting then editing.
Kishkumen wrote:I wanted to add something to this. One of the most valuable insights of Mormonism and Freemasonry, at least in my view, is that there is something enduring about the human experience that should be celebrated and commemorated regularly, not just in word, but also in symbol and ritual action.

While I might quibble a bit here, I think you are largely correct. The human experience is at once new with each person and a process that has been repeated time and time again throughout antiquity. For many Masons, the symbols and ritual help educate the initiate in the the universal nature of this process.
Kishkumen wrote:If you contrast that concept with what I feel is the unhealthy overemphasis on the new. This might seem like a complete contradiction of what you have said, but stick with me a second. What I am referring to when I speak of the new is a teleological view of progress that is completely cut off from the yang of circular patterns of time. There must be a balance between the two views.

The question is this, however: what ought to be repeated? Mormonism is ancient in its structural devotion to the ancient pattern of celebrating this human meaning-making as rooted in creation and orientation in a cosmic schema that is teleological on one level, and cyclical on another. It is not ancient because Joseph Smith saw the priests of ancient Israel performing the Mormon endowment dressed as LDS initiates dress now. Nibley, I believe, had a view that combined both of these senses of the ancient. His successors seem to me to place too much emphasis on the latter. They look for squares and compasses, certain arm gestures, etc., in ancient art and say, "Voila! The Endowment!"

Some of this confusion may result from Smith's own assumptions and worldview. They need not define how LDS people conceptualize the antiquity of Mormonism forever. I think this modern view of the ancient is very detrimental for Mormons because it sets up false expectations that the discourse of larger society will rip to shreds, as, in fact, it is. I know it sounds like I am playing semantic games here, but my background is in Roman Studies. The Romans loved to talk about their religious conservatism, and how they were bringing back ancient practices that were moribund, etc. Really, they were using the cultural mechanisms in place at the time to innovate in a particular way, about particular cultural objects. This kind of view of "ancient" within a religious context is more workable in Mormonism than the modernist view that struggles to dominate Mormon minds today.

Nicely put my dear friend. I actually like the parallel you draw with the Roman system. Yes there must be a balance between old and new; and too much reliance on either causes problems. Freemasonry, as an organization, has managed to maneuver this careful balance for at least three hundred years. In some ways Mormonism has tried to do the same thing; and it is my hope that it will aggressively push the pendulum to keep the clock running.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_sock puppet
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Re: Bill Hamblin and his "Focussed Discussion"

Post by _sock puppet »

DarkHelmet wrote:
Runtu wrote:I had one memorable encounter with Hamblin a couple of years ago. He started a thread insisting that unless critics came up with a detailed theory of exactly how Joseph Smith perpetrated the fraud of the Book of Mormon, they had no grounds to doubt Joseph's story. .


That's a dumb challenge. To someone outside of Mormonism, almost any theory is more plausible than Joseph Smith's story, no matter which of his various stories you choose from. Aliens landing and giving him the Book of Mormon is more believable. Thomas S. Monson building a time machine, traveling back to the 1820s, visiting a young Joseph Smith, giving him the finished Book of Mormon, and telling him what to do to create the church, thus creating a Terminator-like circular paradox, is more believable (and cooler).

Riddle me this: Why do all the good arguments for Mormonism begin with the presumption that is true unless every last detail of JSJr's story is proven false?

Answer: to be a good argument for Mormonism, they have to begin that way and only have traction with those already biased in favor of Mormonism being true.
_sock puppet
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Re: Bill Hamblin and his "Focussed Discussion"

Post by _sock puppet »

Nightlion wrote:
George Miller wrote:
No I think the sod of jehovah is speaking of the shem ha foresh or the ineffable pronunciation of God's name. That this was thought by the Jews to be conveyed in the throne room of God during an heavenly ascent is accurate. However, Hamblin is conflating the sod of Jehovah with the heavenly council itself. It is in this interpretation that I think he is stretching.

I would, however, point out that the heavenly ascent motif is in Freemasonry and the Masonic parallels are MUCH stronger than those presented here by Hamblin. I have beef with anyone who tries to talk about the subject without first discussing the contemporary genetic Masonic connections that influenced Joseph Smith.


Got a dozen viruses after googling sod of Jehovah. Crap. By the way I fail to understand why Mormons want to ignore the obvious that Joseph Smith got the Endowment Revelation spun off from masonic rites. Why is that a problem? Like nobody can write an inspired symphony because there already exists an earlier symphony, so the second symphony must be a phony and cannot be inspired? What the heck?

Many LDS want to believe that prior to 1820 and the first vision that the world was destitute of all divine truth, and that JSJr was the instrumentality by which god restored all divine truth that now exists on the earth.
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