Baker wrote: Do you believe that God spoke to Whitmer in 1838 and told him to separate himself from the saints? He died never have denied that either.
I have no idea what tricks the mind can play. If we only had Whitmer and Smith involved with the process, I would say that the Mormon church has a problem in general with such a small pool of witnesses. But we have many others involved. I think that david was in a confused state when he left the church. He needed to believe something just like the folks on this forum do to rationalize their current status in the church.
And with david we may have a Satanic imput to have him separate from the body of the church. What I see with david with is deathbed testimony as with the other witnesses is an attempt to make it right with god with their final testimonies before taking their last breath.
Haha, that's awesome - just pick and choose the things he said that best support your beliefs, and discard those said, regardless of conviction, that compromise them. You would make a terrific juror.
"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. ... Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I." - Joseph Smith, 1844
Baker wrote: Do you believe that God spoke to Whitmer in 1838 and told him to separate himself from the saints? He died never have denied that either.
I have no idea what tricks the mind can play. If we only had Whitmer and Smith involved with the process, I would say that the Mormon church has a problem in general with such a small pool of witnesses. But we have many others involved. I think that david was in a confused state when he left the church. He needed to believe something just like the folks on this forum do to rationalize their current status in the church.
And with david we may have a Satanic imput to have him separate from the body of the church. What I see with david with is deathbed testimony as with the other witnesses is an attempt to make it right with god with their final testimonies before taking their last breath.
Wow. Just wow.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
DarkHelmet wrote: OK, so Oliver Cowdery was the worst sociopath in history and the Book of Mormon is a 19th century fraud. How is this a problem for critics?
As were the ten other witnesses and emma. And if we include Rigdon in the scam, we can put him with the sociopaths. What we have are at least 13 sociopaths in on a scam. With many of the sociopaths going to their deaths with their scam on their lips before giving up the ghost. Truly amazing.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Here is the deal: put yourself in the place of the witnesses who left the church and yet, kept their mouth shut about a scam. Or put yourself in their place as actually seeing what they saw and yet, having a problem with Joseph. How to rationalize your decision to leave the fold and yet, not deny what you saw or felt with your hands. Good luck.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Here is the deal: put yourself in the place of the witnesses who left the church and yet, kept their mouth shut about a scam. Or put yourself in their place as actually seeing what they saw and yet, having a problem with Joseph. How to rationalize your decision to leave the fold and yet, not deny what you saw or felt with your hands. Good luck.
Here's the deal: put yourself in the position of someone who sees angels and hear voices that he attributes to diety. Report the various messages that you believed you received, notwithstanding that a couple of those messages may later conflict with some guy's beliefs in the 21st century.
"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. ... Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I." - Joseph Smith, 1844
DarkHelmet wrote: OK, so Oliver Cowdery was the worst sociopath in history and the Book of Mormon is a 19th century fraud. How is this a problem for critics?
As were the ten other witnesses and emma. And if we include Rigdon in the scam, we can put him with the sociopaths. What we have are at least 13 sociopaths in on a scam. With many of the sociopaths going to their deaths with their scam on their lips before giving up the ghost. Truly amazing.
As unlikely as you think this is, what you fail to understand is how much easier it is to believe this than Joseph Smith's story. Followers of self proclaimed prophets are not the most rational people in the world. How many people sold their belongings because they followed Harold Camping and believed the world would end on May 21? Far more than 13. So for you to say that in order for it to be fraud, that would mean the followers of Joseph Smith would have to have mental issues simply puts you on common ground with the critics.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
Here is the deal: put yourself in the place of the witnesses who left the church and yet, kept their mouth shut about a scam. Or put yourself in their place as actually seeing what they saw and yet, having a problem with Joseph. How to rationalize your decision to leave the fold and yet, not deny what you saw or felt with your hands. Good luck.
I have no idea what tricks the mind can play. ;)
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
And with david we may have a Satanic imput to have him separate from the body of the church.
LOL. I wish we could post images. I found a great picture of Dana Carvey's church lady saying, "Could it be....SATAN!" It's the first thing I thought of when I read this.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
So really, people in this day and age think that you can look into a seer stone and get scripture? Why isn't that still happening today? Would anyone believe it? That's just crazy talk.
Hey, I just looked into my seer stone and it said, "The Book of Mormon is a 19th century production put on the world by a world class conman."
why me wrote: And good ol david had his testimony put on his tombstone.
THE RECORD OF THE JEWS AND THE RECORD OF THE Nephites ARE ONE. TRUTH IS ETERNAL.
Regards, MG
Quite a thing to have written on one's tombstone if he were a fraudster. He was a religious man---not one to fool around with god's judgement.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith