Runtu wrote: I fail to see the difference between lying and repeating a lie, especially when you think I did so disingenuously and contra the evidence.
I think it is a way to call you a liar without really calling you directly a liar. He does implicate himself later on calling you disingenuous, which is directly calling you a liar.
Again, you know as well as everyone else does, that your accusation is a lie.
Not sure. I have read enough to think he believes his own crap, so I would say extremely deluded. Deluded people seem to just repeat the same accusations without providing any evidence. I am also going to CFR what lies Runtu has been repeating. It seems to me to be attacking Joseph Smith one would have to say things they know are untrue about him in order to qualify as attacking him.
liz3564 wrote:Actually, I hold more animosity and get more of the "creep factor" from Brigham Young than I do Joseph Smith.
The lesser of two evils.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. 2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
zesrom wrote: "How many other sects out there have a founder that spoke face to face with Peter and felt his resurrected hands on his scalp?"
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Are you sure joey did this?
Why not the three Nephites and John, four apostles on the earth the whole time?
Believing the story of one conman is not convincing, especially since the later stories built on the earlier accounts. The lie carved out of the mountain without hands gets bigger as it rolls forth.
"This is how INGORNAT these fools are!" - darricktevenson
Bow your head and mutter, what in hell am I doing here?
infaymos wrote: "Peterson is the defacto king ping of the Mormon Apologetic world."
FACTS ABOUT JOSEPH SMITH (undisputed by Mormon historians):
1) Joseph Smith did use his "peep-stone" to allegedly find buried treasure on farms. No treasure was ever found. Joseph Smith was arrested twice for this, and sent off free each time with a warning. Undisputed. Joseph's boyhood friend and father-in-law both swore Joseph Smith did this. Joseph told them he did so only because he was "forced" to do so by his father and his father's friends. Maybe that is true. Maybe Joseph Smith really did not want to fool old farmers, but was pressured to do so by his father. But....he did!
2) Joseph Smith had sex with up to 32 women he was not legally married to, including his own foster daughters, Hellen Kimball (aged 14), and at least 11 women who were still married to other men, some of them on 2 or 3 year missions to England. Non-disputed.
3) While having up to 32 "wives" Joseph Smith publicly condemned polygamy, excommunicated those who publicly taught it, and claimed those who said he was a polygamist were "liars" and "false swearers".
4) Several of Joseph Smith's teen-age friends later swore in affidavits that Joseph Smith told them that the gold plates were a "humbug" (scam) to make money. True, perhaps these young men were lying for some reason, but this is what they swore before a Justice of the Peace.
5) While Emma was pregnant, Joseph Smith had a "dalliance" with a 16-year old live-in nanny named Fanny Alger who was "comely" (Yankee term meaning "sexy as Hell"). Fanny left the employ of the Smith's pregnant.
These are NON-DISPUTED FACTS!!! Things Mormon historians know are true and factual. This does not include all the "maybes" which make JOseph Smith look much, much, much, worse! For example, according to Sarah Pratt, Joseph Smith tried to seduce her while Orson Pratt was in England on a mission for the Church, and Joseph Smith "got rid" of unwanted pregnancies via abortions performed by John Bennett, who was at that time Mayor of Nauvoo and Assistant President of the Church. WAS SARAH PRATT LYING? Maybe! So, this is still disputed. There is also a claim that Joseph Smith and Porter Rockwell drowned an old woman in the Mississippi after she apporached JOseph and told him she was going to reveal that he was sleeping with teen-aged girls. AGain...this claim is disputed. Also, Rockwell was in Missouri when somebody tried to assassinate Govenor Boggs. AGain, disputed. But the "5" items above are NON-DISPUTED.
But, yes....compared to Brigham Young, Joseph Smith looks like Jesus HIMSELF!!! Brigham Young was perhaps one of the most EVIL MEN WHO HAVE EVER LIVED! He had men murdered all the time, stole MILLIONS from the Tithing Office, lied like the Devil himself.
Somebody wrote: "You've been repeating the lies and defamations of his traditional critics here for a number of years; claims that you cannot support with evidence or facts, nor with compelling argument."
CFR. Show me just one example of a lie I have ever said about Joseph Smith. Otherwise, I'll have to assume you are the liar.
Droopy wrote:I said that you have been passing on the historic ies, distortions, innuendos, assumptions, and bad faith of other critics of the Church, which you have, and all I have to do to elicit some of them is to say "plural marriage."
I don't think so Droopy. I think Runtu has documented quite accuratly the complaints he has particularly about JSs plural marriage and why he has issues with it. And I have yet to see you deal with it responsibly other than call it lies, attack the person providing historical documentation and using way to many words to do it which results in obfuscation to the nth degree.
Now I wait for you to make some snide remark about me, being a cafeteria Mormon on my way to apostasy or already there and yada yada. If that is all you have don't bother. I just did it for you.
Droopy wrote: Oh for crying out loud cut the grandiose moral breast beating. Are we back to that again?
Let's see, Droopy can attempt to be eloquent and use a metaphor about Runtu's sorry apostate soul and beat his chest about it. Runtu posts comments that perhaps Droopy' has a narrow minded world view that really is not all that gospel oriented and Droop cries foul.