Happy Pioneer Day

[_Daniel Peterson]

Shades, you can resolve this by simply posting the reference material that supports your statement about their apostasy.

That won't necessarily "resolve" it, but it would make it easier to have an informed discussion.

[_Doctor Scratch]

What are the names of the three historians, Dan?

[_Daniel Peterson]

What are the names of the three historians, Dan?

Nope. I'm not going to allow you to drag them into your ridiculous conspiracy theories.

If you want to believe that I just made them up, or that they're not really credentialed historians, or whatever your malicious little mind urges you to do, do it.

A fair-minded person (e.g., not you) will likely conclude from what I've posted that the claim recounted by Shades is not universally accepted, and that's enough for me. Convincing you (of anything) hasn't been a goal of mine for at least 4.5 years now.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Yes, but the three "historians" didn't really quantify their assertions, either. Their answers seem to be as speculative, and in one case, actually support the OP's claim (money being taken from them to buy land in Ogden).

This topic would be an interesting thread in of itself.

[_Yoda]

Apologies for not getting back to you sooner! I just have not checked my email lately.

So far as I can tell, there are at least a couple of things wrong with that statement. First, Brigham Young did not "pocket" the money. Some of it (I am no longer sure of the amount, but it sticks in my mind that it was around the equivalent of $3000) was given to Captain James Brown, with instructions to "purchase" Miles Goodyear's claim to the Ogden area. He did so -- though, in the end, I think it has been shown that Goodyear did not really have a valid claim to it. I don't know what happened to the rest of the money, but I think anyone would be hard pressed to prove that "most" of the battalion apostatized over the matter! I have never heard anything like that, even though I have heard the some were disgruntled that they did not get all their pay.

This is going to show my ignorance in history, but who is Miles Goodyear, and why would BY take money which was intended for Winter Quarters families, and use it to purchase land for this person?

[_Daniel Peterson]

Yes, but the three "historians" didn't really quantify their assertions, either. Their answers seem to be as speculative

They were responding to a brief e-mail question that I sent to them, which was prompted by Shades's assertion. At least one of them is on vacation out of state. None was writing an academic treatise. They're all three retired. They were just replying to a brief question from a friend.

What was striking to me is that, although Shades offered his statement as if it were indisputable and accepted fact, none of these specialists in Utah history seemed to be aware of it or to credit it. Which suggests that it may not be widely accepted or beyond dispute.

and in one case, actually support the OP's claim (money being taken from them to buy land in Ogden).

Whether that actually supports the spirit of the OP's assertion -- that Brigham Young took money from the family's for his own benefit, and not for theirs -- isn't entirely clear to me.

This topic would be an interesting thread in of itself.

But only if the conversation on the thread involved people who actually knew something about the topic.

I freely admit that I don't.

This is going to show my ignorance in history, but who is Miles Goodyear, and why would BY take money which was intended for Winter Quarters families, and use it to purchase land for this person?

I don't know a great deal more about this than you do, but Miles Goodyear was a mountain man or trapper, during the last years of the fur trade, who built and occupied Fort Buenaventura in the vicinity of what is now Ogden, Utah.

Brigham Young didn't buy land for Goodyear, he bought it from Goodyear -- presumably for the purpose of settling immigrant Mormons (e.g., the families of the Mormon Battalion) on it.

[_Daniel Peterson]

most of the Mormon Battalion apostatized when they discovered that Brigham Young pocketed their paychecks instead of feeding and housing their wives and children who were left behind in Winter Quarters.

I was fascinated by this claim, which I had never encountered before, so I wrote to three friends of mine -- all three Ph.D.s in history, widely published, specialists in the history of Utah, and former presidents of the Mormon History Association; two of whom are retired holders of endowed chairs in western American history. It being summer, I didn't expect immediate replies, but they have now all three gotten back to me. Here are their responses:

Dan,
I suspect that this statement comes from Will Bagley. I would not believe any generalization that Will Bagley makes without seeing the statistical evidence to back it up. He raised a similar criticism of the Hand Cart experiment, but the best evidence I have seen indicates that with the exception of the Willey and Martin companies the mortality rate was not greater than among the wagon trains.

Brother Dan--The Journal of Joseph Levi Fifield has some information relative to the sometimes bad feelings created by Brigham Young having the Battalion members send their money back to Winter Quarters, also the journals of George Parker Dykes, and the diaries of John D. Lee. Lee in fact was one of those sent to be where the battalion was on pay day, to make sure that money was sent back to their families. My own Great Great Grandfather, James Myler, sent money back to his wife and two small children in Winter Quarters, and walked all the way to California, then all the way to Salt Lake City, then all the way to Winter Quarters and got his family then they crossed the plains again and came to Salt Lake City, but he did not complain about sharing his means with his family. I hope those sources prove to be of some help.

Apologies for not getting back to you sooner! I just have not checked my email lately.

So far as I can tell, there are at least a couple of things wrong with that statement. First, Brigham Young did not "pocket" the money. Some of it (I am no longer sure of the amount, but it sticks in my mind that it was around the equivalent of $3000) was given to Captain James Brown, with instructions to "purchase" Miles Goodyear's claim to the Ogden area. He did so -- though, in the end, I think it has been shown that Goodyear did not really have a valid claim to it. I don't know what happened to the rest of the money, but I think anyone would be hard pressed to prove that "most" of the battalion apostatized over the matter! I have never heard anything like that, even though I have heard the some were disgruntled that they did not get all their pay.

Incidentally, Levi Savage, the hero of the new LDS movie Seventeen Miracles, was a veteran of the Mormon Battalion prior to the events narrated in the film.

[_DaKing]

[quote="Daniel Peterson"]
[quote][color=#000080]Brother Dan--The Journal of Joseph Levi Fifield has some information relative to the sometimes bad feelings created by Brigham Young having the Battalion members send their money back to Winter Quarters]

This is one of my ancestors to come across the plains. My Dad would tell me stories about his Great Grandfather's intense dislike for Brigham Young. How members of his family were punished by the church for not buying things like plows through church owned business because they saved money buying for nonmember owned businesses. I also had one other ancestors who marched in the Mormon Battalion.

[_harmony]

Brigham Young didn't buy land for Goodyear, he bought it from Goodyear -- presumably for the purpose of settling immigrant Mormons (e.g., the families of the Mormon Battalion) on it.

And there is a record somewhere that what you presume took place actually took place? That families of the people whose money was used to purchase that land were actually settled on that land? And what if those families and those men didn't want to settle on that land, but wanted their money so they could do something else with it?

Not that I doubt Brother Brigham. You know I'd never do that.

[_Daniel Peterson]

And there is a record somewhere that what you presume took place actually took place?

Very likely. But I'm just going by what a very prominent historian of Utah told me. I know little of this matter otherwise. I don't suspect him of having invented it out of thin air.

That families of the people whose money was used to purchase that land were actually settled on that land?

That was merely my speculation.

And what if those families and those men didn't want to settle on that land, but wanted their money so they could do something else with it?

I haven't the foggiest notion. You're welcome to research that question, if you choose.

Not that I doubt Brother Brigham. You know I'd never do that.

Doubting the leaders of the Church is as reflexively automatic for you as breathing, as inevitable and predictable as defaming me is for Scratch.