The miracle of forgiveness review from a Christian

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_dogmatic
_Emeritus
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Re: The miracle of forgiveness review from a Christian

Post by _dogmatic »

My bishop made me read it at age 14 after some light to medium "petting" with the cute neighbor girl. It really made me feel like a worm of a human being. I have forgiven the church for almost everything, but the teachings against our human nature and normal and innate sexuality and how these church teachings harm a person are almost unforgivable in my opinion.


I have not read the book. But I read the 20 or so quotes on the blog. It seems to agree With the biblical view and is the natural outworking of a works based faith. I'm glad it is heavily pushed on Mormons. It's telling the truth. God expects nothing less than perfection of you and doing the best you can is never enough. Break ine law and your guilty of breaking them all. What a blessing this book is. I hope it makes you feel so sick and guilty that you turn to Christ who has perfectly atoned for ALL your sins, including heavy petting and murder.
..must make sacrifice of his own life to atone. for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail." - Bruce R. McConkie

And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, … Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man (a.k.a., Jesus) will be forgiven (Matthew 12:31-32).
_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
Posts: 9207
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Re: The miracle of forgiveness review from a Christian

Post by _Jason Bourne »

While I do not agree with all you wrote on your blog I will tell you what I think of this book. Keep in mind I am what many of us term a NOM (new order Mormon) type, which means I am more liberal and less literal and in fact to not think the Mormon Church is the only true church. Many of us doubt some or much of what Joseph Smith claimed and so on.



ezravan wrote:I see this idea of a "evolving church" allot lately.


I am not sure I would call this as an evolving Church though I think there are more in the pews like me but we just don't talk about it because the environment in the LDS Church does not foster talking about doubts and questions. So we come to places like this to vent.

On the other hand the LDS Church seems to be changing. Much of what was commonly talked about and discussed when I was younger (the more extraordinary things like God as man, becoming gods, what does that mean, would we create worlds) and so on seems to be downplayed and even ignored. Mostly you here the basics. A protestant coudl come to an LDS ward meeting and take out Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon and they might often fell right at home.






Through my twenties and early thirties I strived to perfect myself. I was often filled with self loathing and hatred and felt like a dismal failure for all weaknessed I had had ans still had. I suffered from some depression that while likely was not totally related to the teachings from Kimball and others they certainly exacerbated it.


I realize your a NOM, and I realize that the LDS says the LIVING prophet won't lead you astray. This really reminds me of islam and the koran where newer revelation Trump's older revelation.


Well this is part of the issues for me. I spent time as a hobby apologist. But so much of my defense was "oh that is not official and it is just opinion." But then the leaders say "Follow the Brethren, Follow the Prophet and he will not lead you astray." Well what about those who believed Brigham Young's Adam God theory? Did he lead some astray then?

Then I started really reading scripture, including LDS scripture, especially the Book of Mormon and New Testament and I realized that even in LDS canon there was this thing called grace and faith in Jesus and justification. I formed an idea that perfection was obtainable only through Christ and His forgiveness and if I had faith in him I was justified and that the rest was more the sanctification thing and everyone would be on their on very different journey on that path. All would stumble and sin along the way and improve and such. But that did no save them. Their perfect partner Jesus did. Otherwise if someone needed 75 years to do all that was needed to perfect themselves and they dies at 40 they were in trouble. I fugured God would not work that way. During this time I picked up a book by an LDS religion professor from BYU. His name is Stephen Robinson and the book was Believing Christ. Well it put in to a more succinct presentation all I had been discovering in scripture. I decided that too many LDS leaders had been much too works oriented and I saw that some were moving more to grace, justification and then sanctification.


So you would be quiet offended by kimball saying “One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation.” (pp. 206-207)


Honestly yes, this offends me very much so.

That's really great. You sound like your a born again Mormon.


I will be honest and tell you as I look at Christianity with the same critical eye I have Mormonism I have concerns there. Yet I still have faith, I believe Christianity is the best and likely most true religion or doctrine. So yes I believe in Jesus Christ for salvation and still maintain faith there. And I do not believe I can do works that will save me.


But let me ask you. With this new knowledge, do you believe that a Christian, that rejects Joseph Smith and all the ordinances and commandments of the LDS gospel, can attain the highest that God has to offer, meaning celestial kingdom etc..


Yes.
"Believing Christ" next on my reading list.. but I've found no use of this book in conference, or official LDS writings.. but loads of support for the miracle. I think that says something about where the church stands on the issue.


True but it has been a very popular book.

Secondly, If I'm taking you right, you say the ordinances of the LDS such as tithe, temple rights, refraining from coffee, drink, temple marriage and so on, are your sanctification, do you think that sanctification is a work of man or a work of God's spirit?


God's spirit.

During this time I was also called to be and LDS bishop. So I made it my goal at least during my time and in my little ward to focus on grace, mercy and justification. I refused to use the book Miracle of Forgiveness when I worked with persons that were struggling with sin and error in their life. I could share more on this but I think the members I worked with received this message with a lot of joy. I used a talk where i asked "If you were to die tomorrow would you be inherit the celestial kingdom?" And then I showed with the Book of Mormon and even the D&C as well as the New Testament why it was likely that most could say yes.


What if they bring up from many a quote in the D&C that says this is not true, how do you answer that? That this prophet is right and this prophet was wrong?



I guess personally I pick and choose. I decided what is true and not. If I find something does not resonate with my after I ponder and pray about it I personally feel I can put it aside.
_Jason Bourne
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Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Re: The miracle of forgiveness review from a Christian

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Tchild wrote:My bishop made me read it at age 14 after some light to medium "petting" with the cute neighbor girl. It really made me feel like a worm of a human being. I have forgiven the church for almost everything, but the teachings against our human nature and normal and innate sexuality and how these church teachings harm a person are almost unforgivable in my opinion.



I cannot even began to state how much I agree with you and why. But I do.
_dogmatic
_Emeritus
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:58 pm

Re: The miracle of forgiveness review from a Christian

Post by _dogmatic »

I will be honest and tell you as I look at Christianity with the same critical eye I have Mormonism I have concerns there. Yet I still have faith, I believe Christianity is the best and likely most true religion or doctrine. So yes I believe in Jesus Christ for salvation and still maintain faith there. And I do not believe I can do works that will save me.


My name is dogmatic, but It's a joke when you listen to my posts. I'm not dogmatic.. I find it funny that I can talk to a Mormon or a Baptist and still walk away with the same impression of their spirit. Pride. That we know the perfect will of God and are sure of it. Strange enough it is my OWN pride, that causes me not to trust either side, because I know how hard I have fought in the past to be right. To be right, can really feed your self righteousness and decrease your dependance on the cross.I'm as much guilty of this as anyone else.
..must make sacrifice of his own life to atone. for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail." - Bruce R. McConkie

And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, … Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man (a.k.a., Jesus) will be forgiven (Matthew 12:31-32).
_dogmatic
_Emeritus
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:58 pm

Re: The miracle of forgiveness review from a Christian

Post by _dogmatic »

Then I started really reading scripture, including LDS scripture, especially the Book of Mormon and New Testament and I realized that even in LDS canon there was this thing called grace and faith in Jesus and justification. I formed an idea that perfection was obtainable only through Christ and His forgiveness and if I had faith in him I was justified and that the rest was more the sanctification thing and everyone would be on their on very different journey on that path. All would stumble and sin along the way and improve and such. But that did no save them. Their perfect partner Jesus did. Otherwise if someone needed 75 years to do all that was needed to perfect themselves and they dies at 40 they were in trouble. I fugured God would not work that way. During this time I picked up a book by an LDS religion professor from BYU. His name is Stephen Robinson and the book was Believing Christ. Well it put in to a more succinct presentation all I had been discovering in scripture. I decided that too many LDS leaders had been much too works oriented and I saw that some were moving more to grace, justification and then sanctification.


your quote seems to suggest the ALL sufficiency of Christ. That his sacrifice was all that was needed for sin. So why would you look for anything outside of this truth? What especially would you look to a religion that said that his blood was not sufficient? I don't need the miracle of forgiveness, I can find this in official Mormon doctrine. This reminds me of the cult I was in. I started to justify them before I could leave them. Do you really believe coffee will keep you from worthiness? Especially when the Bible has made it clear that NO substance is sinful in itself. Very clear that a Christian is free to decide on his own about substances... will you now submit to a obvious lie? Jesus died to set us free from the laws of men, but you, will ride the line of mens laws for what? for your family, because you will loose your friends and business? Your close to the truth, you only need to deny Joseph smith and you will be able to live a truly free life. free from law, but attracted to love. I'll help you step away. Revelations says very clearly, if you add to this book, or subtract, your name WILL be removed from the book of life. Now if we were atheist, you would say, this was written in 90, and I would say 60. You would contest the book as part as Gods word. But we are Mormon and Christian, even your prophet Joseph said it was the word of God. Your church accepts the cannon as long as it is translated etc.. So we know the Bible is the word of god. Joseph said revelations was the most plain book in scripture. But lets go back to the warning. Lets go to Joseph. I've used revelations for adding to any of God's scripture... but Mormons have insisted it only relates to revelation. So fine whatever... we will ignore the psalms that say adding to "any" word.. lets go with revelations. Joseph added and subtracted almost 85 times from the book that warned about adding and subtracting.. Joseph is in hell. Because it promises this man will be removed from the book of life. What I really like is that revelations says it will prove him a lier. and it did by its own revelation. You need look no further than Joseph's Devine command to change the one book commanded not to change. If you need proof of the book, you'll find most arguments are against the author, not the content.
..must make sacrifice of his own life to atone. for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail." - Bruce R. McConkie

And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, … Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man (a.k.a., Jesus) will be forgiven (Matthew 12:31-32).
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