Why People Dislike Mormons

[_why me]

Desired effect of my hyperbole. Mormons can do whatever the heck they want, this is America after all. But they shouldn't expect to gain tons of converts or be liked by general society as long as they continue along the same cultural course. They'll continue to be nothing but a punch line for mainstream American society.

And did you decribe your post as a hyperbole? No. Mormonism creates its own culture from its teachings. And yes, their behavior and good two shoes attitude will create punch lines. This is because Mormons are different and have different values from many in the mainstream. Nothing wrong with that. How should Mormons get more converts? By acting more like the society around them and have the same values as the society they see around them. That is your opinion, right?

So, for you, Mormons should not just be in the world but act like the world. They should no longer be an example but a part of the norm. What would the apostle Paul say to such a line?

[_why me]

I was planning on arguing against much of what has been posted on this thread. But I decided mostly not too for this reason. Everyone's experiences are theirs and not mine. So how can I argue with that?

However I want to make a few comments. First, I have lived most my life and built a very successful career outside of Utah though I grew up there. I have never flet that my non LDS friends, business partners or associates dislike me or the Church. What they say behind my back I do not know. I have taken some friendly jabbing over some of the peculiar things like garments, the Church's opposition to gays, word of wisdom, etc. There was a time that a few of my co-workers liked to call me the "Stormin Mormon." But I felt it was all in fun. Maybe it wasn't really. Another very powerful and respected man in my profession on a national scale that I became very good friends with was always very positive at least to my face about the Mormons he knew as well as the standards Mormons espoused. Recently one of my business partners said to me after one of the recent republican presidential debates "what is it about all you Mormons? You are all good looking, very smart, successful and seem to rise in power frequently." Given that he is Jewish I found his comments interesting since Jewish people tend to be very successful.

Growing up in Utah I did witness some of what Hoops talked about and it used to infuriate me. Maybe I was odd but I had three of my very best friends who where not LDS. One was kid that moved in from California when I was 12 and he got picked on a lot. I hated seeing that so I decided to be his friend. And when I was a senior graduating from Hich School I feel mad in love with a Catholic girl who much to my dismay did not want to pursue our relationship very far. She broke my heart when she ended our short fling by telling me "You need to find you a Mormon girl to take to the temple because I am never joining your Church." Well I was not trying to get her to join and at that point in my life did not all that much care. I was just crazy about her.

As for friends that are non LDS I think it normal that persons with common interests tend to flock together. Anyone, LDS, EV, devote Catholic I think are more likely to hang with those in common. Does that make them bad, or boring because they may have less to talk about than other might? No I think it makes them human.

So are Mormons weird? Yes somewhat. Do they add to their problems by doing some of the things described in these posts. Yes. Is it prevalent? I do not know. As an LDS person I am the minority where I live. In my entire working career I only had a couple years where I there was one other active LDS person where I work. We have had a couple inactive LDS persons there but only one active.

Hoops, I can tell you the my kids have experienced what your kids did from Protestants. They have been teased and ostracized, sometimes brutally. They have put up with comments from teachers, abuse from other students with teacher seeing it and not intervening. There was a group of home school people in the area that at one point when we considered home schooling (we decided against it) that would not let us participate in their extra curricular events because we were Mormons. They were predominantly a Protestant group. I could continue. Hoops, Unfortunately what you describe is note unique when one group is the majority in an area and such behavior is not uniquely LDS. One thing for sure is LDS leaders have condemned and discouraged such behavior by LDS members from the GC pulpit more than once. Do Protestants do the same?

So there is much accuracy in what has been posted and suggestions for change is good.

Kevin I do think some of what you say has much truth but I find you posting about the worst without crediting decent behavior and it creates a characterization that is not totally accurate.

Later maybe I will pull out some comments I think are distorting. But like I said, there is much truth in what has been posted and I think we should work as a people to change it.

Now this should have been your first post on this thread and the other of your posts should have followed. I think that you are correct in what you are saying about Mormons. Many of the posters here are overlooking one more fact. Many non Mormons do not want to hang out with Mormons because their lifestyle is different. Mormons can also find themselves poorly judged by those around them because of their lifestyle choices.

The point is: People tend to hang around with those who share like values. And this is just natural. When parents see their child beginning to hang around with children who they consider to be a bad influence they attempt to influence their child to discard those new friends. Why? because they do not want their children to adopt such values as their new friends have.

[_why me]

Behavior like this doesn't "come across" as fake, it is patently fake. I've seen this from so many people in "missionary mode" that at this point I don't regard anything that comes out of their mouth as genuine. Flattery, concern, friendliness, empathy all of this is questionable from the person who wants you to join their church, and with out a doubt fake from those sent out specifically to proselytize. They are a lot like politicians in this regard, saying what ever they think you want to hear in order to get you into the "pews" of their church.

And who are they? All Mormons? I think café that you have been reading so many posts that are unkind to Mormons that you tend to develop them as your own.

Mormons are just people. The vast majority are neither fake or insincere. But they do believe that their church is the true church and they do wish to share it with others. My daughters have been and are missionaries and they certainly not fake nor do they act like politicians. So, when Mormons are friendly, you become suspicious. When Mormons are kind, you become suspicious. But really that is your own problem. And no one elses.

How do you treat others café? Are you kind? Do you show empathy? Would you like people to join the catholic church? Are you being fake?

The vast majority of people in Mormonism are converts. When do they suddenly become fake?

[_why me]

It's astronomically rare that Mormons are genuine friends with non-Mormons and in many cases, even with other Mormons. After all, too much (i.e., 'eternal life') is at stake, and believing Mormons are focussed on climbing up the LDS institution's version of Jacob's ladder to get into the Celestial Kingdom. When 'friendship' is extended to lapsed and to non Mormons, it's purposeful; i.e., it's to (re-)convert them. If they resist, Mormons on the ladder have no time for them. Mormon 'friendship' isn't, therefore, genuine. The equation of Mormon fellowshipping to Amway recruitment is apt.

And your attitude affects the way you communicate with them at the MDD board. You are usually hostile and belittling. And now this explains it. You have absolutely no respect for LDS members. And this affects your behavior toward them as a group of people. It is unfortunate. Maybe if you would clear your mind of such prejudice you will begin to live a better life without the bitterness that is now in your heart.

[_moksha]

I dispute the broad characterization that for most it is entirely superficial and only to get converts.

From my years of living among the Gentiles in Utah, I know this is their most talked about complaint. When these Gentiles were first met by members of the majority religion in Utah, the question that always occurred was, "What religion are you?". Once it was ascertained that they had no interest in joining the LDS Church, they reported the person's interest in them evaporated.

I know this problem was mentioned in a conference talk, so I hope things have gotten better since then and that this was only a phenomena occurring in densely populated LDS areas. The let down from this interaction accumulates into dreadful perceptions of the Saints.

.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I get that this happens all to often. And who is deconstructing HIS experience? Is mine as valid as his? I say mine see elements of what he says. But I do not see it always and I see many who do not fit this characterization.

Hello Mr. Jason,

You know. The more you post the more I like you. I think you're a decent fellow.

V/R
Dr. Cam

[_Kevin Graham]

Now this should have been your first post on this thread and the other of your posts should have followed. I think that you are correct in what you are saying about Mormons. Many of the posters here are overlooking one more fact. Many non Mormons do not want to hang out with Mormons because their lifestyle is different. Mormons can also find themselves poorly judged by those around them because of their lifestyle choices.

The point is: People tend to hang around with those who share like values. And this is just natural. When parents see their child beginning to hang around with children who they consider to be a bad influence they attempt to influence their child to discard those new friends. Why? because they do not want their children to adopt such values as their new friends have.

Apparently this entire discussion has gone right over why me's head. The issue has nothing to do with people hanging out with those they have more things in common. The issue is the fakeness of so many Mormons pretending to befriend those not of their faith. This has less to do with a social sub-culture created by Mormonism and more to do with Mormonism's divisive teachings and their presumed elite status in the eyes of God.

And your attitude affects the way you communicate with them at the MDD board. You are usually hostile and belittling. And now this explains it.

You wish. The fact is you don't know what you're talking about. All I do is point out errors in apologetic thinking and this is immediately interpreted as "hostile." Well, they have no business pretending to be a "discussion" or "dialogue" forum if they are not ready to accept different perspectives. Hell they've banned their own members for expressing views contrary to their own. So it has nothing to do with hostility, especially when the record shows that it is they who are hostile towards me. Pahoran accused me of lying three times and said I was worse than a murderer and the mods sat by and did nothing until I refuted him on a point, and then suddenly they jump in to shut down the thread while telling ME I have crossed lines. You see, it is all about public perception for them. When a thread goes the wrong way, they have to shut it down. And by wrong way, I mean one of their veteran apologists starts losing a debate against a known apostate. All this nonsense about my so-called hostility is just a convenient excuse people like you like to fall back on to avoid the facts.

[_Kevin Graham]

Jason, you may be interested in this discussion which took place at MAD way back in 2005:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/680 ... te-reasons

Notice that according to Dan Peterson, there can be no legitimate reason for leaving the Church. And everyone who claims an intellectual reason, is simply lying, and hiding a more personal reason that has to do with desire to sin.

[_Themis]

Notice that according to Dan Peterson, there can be no legitimate reason for leaving the Church.

He did say it was based on the assumption the church is true. The apologists believes the church is true so there can be no legitimate reason to leave.

And everyone who claims an intellectual reason, is simply lying, and hiding a more personal reason that has to do with desire to sin.

What was interesting is there seemed to be a separation of why one leaved the church and why one stopped believing. It's really about why we stopped believing, not why we may choose to stop going to church. I stopped believing due to intellectual reasons, but why I may leave church can certainly depend on other factors as well.

[_Patriarchal gripe]

I enjoyed reading the thread. After discussing this very topic, "Why people leave the church", with literally dozens of still active, NOM, and ex-Mormons over the past year of my apostasy, I have come to the conclusion that almost every opinion that believers have about ex-Mormons leaving for pride, sin, laziness, and offense have some validity. Almost every ex-mo I have met has disclosed one of the reasons listed above as a factor in their exit from the faith, I included. Usually it is disclosed well after the apostasy has “set in”, and usually comes more shamelessly in direct correlation with the time the person has spent away from the church. I have studied these phenomena out with much interest while making my decision to stay or leave the church.

Nevertheless, I still made the decision to leave. With zero qualms. The church just isn’t true, and I can say that as matter-of-factly as saying that I don’t have a green monster living under my bed.

Now, before all the defenders and ex-Mormons jump on me here, just give me a minute to explain my own theories.

One of the most powerful tools the church (more on what the church "is" in a minute) has in its toolbox of defense against apostasy, as one control mechanism, is the fear of being seen as a moral failure. Specifically, we are taught from our primary days on to always appear as righteous and a moral beacon to the world. In effect, however, what we do is strive to appear as a moral beacon to the only people who care to look at our morality, and that is the Mormon friends, family members, and ward members who are constantly measuring themselves up to us and each other. We are actually discouraged, contrary to certain scriptural injunctions, from confessing our sins in public, in the form of public confessions during testimonies, personal object lessons to the youth, even our own children, in lessons about morality, etc. Vague allusions to "mistakes" or "challenges", is about as far as you will generally hear members go with a public confession. I find this odd in a church that taught initially that this is exactly what the members are supposed to do in public meetings!

Back on topic, what this does, is ingrains a constant fear in being seen as a moral failure. As a believing church member, our social capital comes in the form of our “righteousness”. (Women especially hyper-realize this in their efforts to bake, decorate their homes, and veneer their persons with the perfect hair-do, clothing, and makeup- often at a huge sacrifice to their mental well being.) When we lose that “righteousness” through sin, confessed or perceived by those around us, we lose social standing because of the loss of moral capital. There is no feeling more shaming than being denied the opportunity to take the sacrament when it is passed by you, or having to tell the SS teacher that you can't give the opening prayer (both from experience here). We actually become an object of pity! Many choose to lie and cover up rather than expose themselves as a moral failure. As a priesthood leader who listened to dozens of confessions of sins, and even more telling, the accusations of members against other members, I saw this fear of shame and pious gloating over others over and over. I sat on disciplinary councils at local and stake levels and saw the shaming process in action. This shame is exactly the reason why ex-Mormons VEHEMENTLY deny leaving the church for any reason other than intellectual reason. It is also the reason why those defenders of the faith VEHEMENTLY accuse ex-Mormons of leaving the church for sin (lately boiled down to pron, almost always).
The fact is, active, believing and faithful members continue in the faith despite their continuing, daily sins (including pron use), pride, laziness, and being offended. It is also fact that people leave the church every day because of some level of these same factors (70% worldwide inactivity rate isn’t caused by people reading too much over at MormonThink) in addition to external factors such as family inactivity, etc.

It is also fact that people leave the church because of pride, laziness, sin, and being offended IN ADDITION TO finding out that the church’s truth claims are not the white-washed version they were taught for 40 years. I can admit freely that I am prideful, lazy, sin daily, and have been easily offended as a believer and an apostate. It would do a lot of apostates a lot of good to admit that, too.
However, it would do a lot of apologists and faithful defenders good to get off their high horse and admit they are wrong in ascribing apostasy only to the desire to sin. It might even do them good to admit they are sinners, lazy and prideful, too. Come on guys, step up to the mic and admit that the church does in fact have a lot of crap in its history and doctrines that can be difficult to swallow. Admit that you view pron regularly, or secretly wish you could have a beer or take the boat to the lake this Sunday!

Back to the “Church” and what it is, and whether it is deliberately deceitful. I personally don’t believe the church leaders or its chief defenders are in a deliberate effort to lie and deceive the membership. That may be true in a minority of cases, but not generally. I can’t believe that based on my own experiences as a church member and PH leader. However, the “mind virus” is infectious, and the leaders and scholars are willingly and socially committed, and sometimes fiducially bound, to perpetuating a mythology that requires copious amounts of faith to overcome internal mental opposition and dissonance. It is my opinion that ALL of our brains are uniquely evolved to do this very thing. So I personally am willing to give believers a break, even when they know A LOT of the warts. If I had a paycheck coming in with BYU or Corporation of the President under the signature block, I would probably be wearing a suit and sitting in a boring meeting this beautiful Sunday morning instead of sipping my coffee in my jammies here at the computer.

I guess what I am taking too long to say is that, guys, you are both right. People DO leave the church because they are moral failures (only in the strict sense of Mormon morality). And people do leave the church because they find out the bad in the church history and doctrine. But people do lose their faith that are wholly and largely innocent. I have those close to me who fit that bill exactly. Apostates need to review their reasons for leaving the faith, and apologists need to review their own motives for staying in spite of the ugly stuff. Look hard, because you are fooling yourself if you think you are motivated ONLY by your intellectual honesty, or inversely, your righteousness and saintly faith.