Postponing Having Children

[Guest]

I think girl scouting is viewed as a feminist organization by the church.

Wow, I wish I'd known that before we put my middle daughter in Girl Scouts!

I'm being sarcastic, by the way. My older daughter was completely happy with the Church's Achievement Girls program, or Activity Days, or whatever it's called now. My middle daughter enjoyed that program too but she wanted to get involved in something her older sister hadn't done, so we put her in Girl Scouts. She enjoyed it a lot.

If the LDS Church ever said anything about Girl Scouting being "a feminist organization," my wife and I certainly weren't aware of it.

Personally, the only problem I have with the Activity Days program is that it needs to be every week, like the Cub Scouts, instead of every other week.

[_Jersey Girl]

Response to no one in particular.

So...you've got two 21 year olds, presumably with little to no work experience, perhaps some college but certainly not established financially, having babies right away.

How is this NOT a recipe for socio-economic disaster?

[_Jason Bourne]

There have been a number of statistical studies discussing Mormon sociology. The most influential to me when I serving as a bishop was Brent Top's article in Latter-Day Saint Social Life: Social Research on the LDS Church and Its Members (Religious Studies Center Specialized Monograph Series;, V. 12) [Hardcover]
James T. Duke (Editor).

Although I've never seen studies linking Mormon missionary service to being a good father, there are plenty of studies to show that serving a mission means it much more likely that one will be married in the temple, and a temple marriage makes it extraordinarily less likely that a marriage will end in divorce. Thus, it follows, that a male who serves as a missionary is, from a social sciences perspective, less likely to be a divorced father.

And, of course, studies are legion about the effect of divorce upon children. I should remark that the negative impacts upon children of divorce have been assailed by some social scientists, but the overwhelming academic literature shows real problems with divorce. I point in particular to this North Carolina study: http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/fcs/pdfs/fcs482.pdf.

As a bishop, and I served a very long time by current standards, the one advice I gave to couples (typically sisters) contemplating divorce was that the most significant problem with divorce is that some other parent was going to raise their children, and love rarely is optimal in a step relationship.

As to the positive effects upon the male experience that a mission offers, there have been some non-statistical observations offered by non-members.

See
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-1 ... suite.html
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/co ... 977933.htm

But, back to divorce. It has been my non-statistical observation that divorce often leads to a reduced activity level, especially among males. My own personal opinion is that these men see themselves as second-class citizens unworthy of being trusted with leadership positions, and in the Mormon Church leadership positions are where its at for many Mormon males. These divorced men then "pile on" with their problems by retaliating against the Church and against priesthood leaders which might otherwise be in a good position to help them be better fathers or have better relationships with their children and ex-wives. My personal experience among my divorced male LDS friends is that those who keep their covenants are much more likely to have healthy relationships with their kids and exes -- from little things to priesthood advancement and scouting to marriages of children.

And, if this little board is any window upon the world of anti-Mormonism, there appears to be here a staggeringly high percentage of divorced fathers who might also be returned missionaries. Had they not abandoned their families, it would have -- in my estimation -- been a much less likely probability that they'd be here posting.

Interesting stuff and I think many of your observations as a bishop were similar to mine. Though I did know a number of men who had been divorced and were remarried and were quite active and solid. My two counselors were such and they were some of the finest and best LDS men I knew. But perhaps it is the man that is divorced and remains single that struggles.

One thing I find discouraging is a divorce can often block certain leadeship callings and I think that is sad. My 1st counselor would be a fine bishop and I believe one of the reasons he has not been called is because of his divorce. And he was almost totally the victim in his divorce. His ex wife cheated on him multiple times. Even with that he wanted to stay with her and forgive her but she wanted out.

[_KevinSim]

Agreed, but my observations are that if the Mormon male is an RM or has graduated college (and especially so if he has an advanced degree), it is a high probability that "Mormom Church leadership positions are where it's at" for him.

Well, that would be me. I'm a RM and I got a MS in Computer Science from the University of Washington back in 1994. I had two stints as counselors in elder's quorum presidencies in two singles wards I was in. (I was in singles wards pretty much continuously from 1983 until 1990.) To be honest I sometimes wonder why I've never been in an elder's quorum presidency since then, and why I've never been an elder's quorum president at all, but every time I think that I realize I'm being immature and dismiss the thought.

I think there might be some truth to what you say for some men, enough that I wrote a similar situation into a short story I wrote a couple of years ago. For reasons I won't go into right now friends Russell and Candace went their separate ways when they were in their late teens. Candace married a RM who was pretty gung ho when he graduated from BYU, and he was the father of her three children.

But ten years later when this husband wasn't CEO of his company and wasn't bishop of his ward, he got disillusioned and depressed. He did a spiritual nosedive, and when he started taking out his frustrations by beating up his young son, Candace divorced him (making herself available to Russell again).

In this story the former husband is clearly not on the moral high ground, at least relative to Russell. But of course this is just fiction.

[_bcspace]

Agreed, but my observations are that if the Mormon male is an RM or has graduated college (and especially so if he has an advanced degree), it is a high probability that "Mormom Church leadership positions are where it's at" for him.

Long hours and no pay. Where is this at you say?

[_KevinSim]

Girls are nothing but walking wombs, so avoidance of an organization that doesn't support that agenda is expected.

Harmony, where do you get this "walking wombs" comment? My wife is very definitely not a walking womb. How do you conclude that girls "are nothing but" walking wombs?

[_Jason Bourne]

But in this scenario, isn't the church lobbing on a truckload of overwhelming responsibility to it's young adult males?

Yes sure. But hey we are tough you know and are told to be tough. I recall President Kimball talking about being married shortly after a mission, not delaying marriage and family and all at the same time keeping your wife home. He said something like we could do it, others had done it and while it was hard it could be done.

And he was right. It was hard but it could be done. Yes the burden was heavy. Was it bad? I don't know. My wife was done with college when we married. I tried to do a couple different things for work before starting collage at 24. She worked and I worked too while in college. We were able to have a schedule where we left our kids with sitter very little to none most the time. But it was a juggling act. But I will tell you I over all I really enjoyed having one then two then three kids that I was at home with quite a bit while they were young. My wife worked when I was home and I worked and went to school while she was home. I cooked, cleaned, did wash and did as much child care as she did. I would need to study and I would tell my little ones to give me two hours or so to study then we would play for a half hour to and hour. We had lots of fun dancing around the room to Niel Diamond and other tunes as well as playing all sorts of other thing and reading. I

Yea it was hard but it sure bound us together and all my wife and I now have comes from working hard together.

Interestingly many LDS marriages that go through what i described are intact. I cannot say how happy they are all but the ones I know personally sure seem to be.

Would I want to do this again and would I maybe do it differently. No and yes. But still it is not impossible.

[_Jason Bourne]

Long hours and no pay. Where is this at you say?

Ego, recognition, power and control are all heady things as well as the fact that we put leaders on a platform and make it appear that high callings may mean someone is more righteous, the Rock Star status GAs have, and so on. Being in on things the rank and file are not in on as well is a thing that is appealing to many as well. We say don't aspire but the whole way we comment about and the way we act toward leaders contradicts this entirely.

But reality is as you note, long hours and no pay as well as people who are often unhappy with you.

I found that the alleged glory of being a bishop (if I ever thought there was one) wears off pretty quickly.

[_KevinSim]

Let's take your account as an example, sock. I'm assuming that your wife didn't pursue higher education. Tell me what the church would have expected your wife to do had she become widowed as a young mother?

Sock will have to answer for himself. But if my wife had "become widowed as a young mother" she would have returned to the software engineering career she left soon before we got our kids. In fact, when we got married she was making more money than I was. So not all LDS women go to college just to find husbands.

[_sock puppet]

Long hours and no pay. Where is this at you say?

Ego, recognition, power and control are all heady things as well as the fact that we put leaders on a platform and make it appear that high callings may mean someone is more righteous, the Rock Star status GAs have, and so on. Being in on things the rank and file are not in on as well is a thing that is appealing to many as well. We say don't aspire but the whole way we comment about and the way we act toward leaders contradicts this entirely.

But reality is as you note, long hours and no pay as well as people who are often unhappy with you.

I found that the alleged glory of being a bishop (if I ever thought there was one) wears off pretty quickly.

Stake President is the first payoff job up the ladder.