If Satan wrote the Book of Mormon...

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_RayAgostini

Re: If Satan wrote the Book of Mormon...

Post by _RayAgostini »

just me wrote:That is what I get from your Moroni 7. I went and read just about the whole thing along with clicking the nice little word links to get more clarification on the words "good" and "evil." After doing so I am conviced that what it is saying is that no human is capable of being/doing good.

The contradiction contained within these scriptures is that on the one hand it is claimed that "by their fruits you will know them" and that WORKS basically show where our heart is or we can be judged by them.

5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.


On the other hand we are told that people can pray, donate, and do all manner of GOOD WORKS but still be EVIL because they didn't have "charity" or "real intent."
This is a contradiction.

Look at this:
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the apoor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.


If someone gives all they have even unto their very LIFE it is still counted for EVIL if they don't have "charity." That makes no sense.

I also have a problem with the fact ANYTHING and EVERYTHING "God" asks people to do is "good." People claim "God" told them to do nasty, disgusting stuff all the time. All the time. So, people write down in a book that their god told them to commit genocide (which there is no archaeological evidence of ever happening, by the way) and we are just supposed to believe that God commands genocide, therefore genocide, in this case, is "good." The same goes for Laban and Nephi.

Let's look at this passage:
6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.
7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.


It seems to be saying here that an "evil man" can do good works, but because he is evil or doesn't have "real intent" they DON'T count. How can any human ever live up to this standard?

12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.
13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.


What does this even mean? It sounds like it is saying that all good comes from God...but remember that if an evil person PRAYS it is not good and is counted for evil. ??? How does that even make sense?

This passage is implying that you are either all good or all evil. Those who sin do so on a constant basis.

But, maybe, just maybe, the key is at the end here. The only thing that is good is to serve and love god. So, anyone who doesn't believe in this brand of god is incapable of doing or being good. Everything they do, even "good works," are actually counted for evil and ignored by god.

More nuggets from Moroni:
14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.


Here we are issued a warning not to think evil comes from God and not to think good comes from the devil. How on earth can we tell? Is genocide "good" or is "praying without real intent" evil? That is what the scriptures tell us. However, that is not inuitive.

15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.


Here we are promised that it will be EASY and PLAIN to us what is good and what is evil. We are to judge according to this easy method given us.

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.


Ok, so the LoC is given to every human that they might now good from evil and know it intuitively and as night and day. They will have a "perfect knowledge" of good and evil using this method.

Well, looking at history there doesn't seem to be a firm pattern of "good" and "evil" that we can fall back on. Killing people of your own tribe has typically been seen as wrong. Killing those outside of your tribe has been employed frequently. Infantacide has been used as a valid method of population control by many ancient cultures...today we are horrified by it and think it evil.

So, what exactly are these night/day, black/white good and evil works that every human knows through the Light of Christ? That is what I want to know. I also want to know why it isn't as obvious to me as it is supposed to be given what is claimed in Moroni 7.

OMG, I just thought of something else. Adam and Eve were not born with the LoC...knowledge of good and evil. Eating the fruit was what gave them the Light of Christ. Strange.


Sigh. "Works" are indeed determined by intent. When the Book of Mormon says that an evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit, it means exactly that. It may produce "good fruit", for a time, but with the wrong intent. For example, I think that numerous Mormons seeking to gain "top dog" in the Celestial Kingdom, and particularly males who think they're going to some kind of "screwing heaven", are totally misguided, and have "wrong intent". I knew a faithful LDS man who really believed that he'd have 200 wives in the resurrection (he actually told me this), because of his "faithfulness". I'd honestly say that his dick-urges played a huge role in this. The Book of Mormon does not teach this, nor support it.
_RayAgostini

Re: If Satan wrote the Book of Mormon...

Post by _RayAgostini »

DarkHelmet wrote:
It is overly simplistic. An evil man cannot do good? That's total BS. It's black and white thinking. Evil people compartmentalize. Nobody is 100% pure evil. What's the definition of "good"? I'm sure Hitler did plenty of "good" things for his country and his fellow Germans while also plotting evil acts for the rest of the world. There are degrees of evil. And even the most evil people will do good things now and then.


Hitler was a vegetarian, and an animal lover. Of course he had a sense of humanity, and there were good things about him.

But what was the final "fruit" he produced? Death, concentration camps, and the elimination of anything "defective" to the human race, which primarily included Jews. Is it really that hard to read Hitler's real intent? Even if he helped a little old lady to cross the street.
_RayAgostini

Re: If Satan wrote the Book of Mormon...

Post by _RayAgostini »

Drifting wrote:
When Mormon's were instructed to collaberate with Hitler was that good people doing good, good people doing evil, evil people doing good or evil people doing evil?


Read, and absorb, and stop painting all Mormons with one broad brush:

Helmuth Hübener.
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Re: If Satan wrote the Book of Mormon...

Post by _Kishkumen »

RayAgostini wrote:Hitler was a vegetarian, and an animal lover. Of course he had a sense of humanity, and there were good things about him.

But what was the final "fruit" he produced? Death, concentration camps, and the elimination of anything "defective" to the human race, which primarily included Jews. Is it really that hard to read Hitler's real intent? Even if he helped a little old lady to cross the street.


Devastatingly insightful.
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Re: If Satan wrote the Book of Mormon...

Post by _just me »

RayAgostini wrote:
DarkHelmet wrote:
It is overly simplistic. An evil man cannot do good? That's total BS. It's black and white thinking. Evil people compartmentalize. Nobody is 100% pure evil. What's the definition of "good"? I'm sure Hitler did plenty of "good" things for his country and his fellow Germans while also plotting evil acts for the rest of the world. There are degrees of evil. And even the most evil people will do good things now and then.


Hitler was a vegetarian, and an animal lover. Of course he had a sense of humanity, and there were good things about him.

But what was the final "fruit" he produced? Death, concentration camps, and the elimination of anything "defective" to the human race, which primarily included Jews. Is it really that hard to read Hitler's real intent? Even if he helped a little old lady to cross the street.


Hmmm. How does Moses stack up?
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Re: If Satan wrote the Book of Mormon...

Post by _just me »

RayAgostini wrote:
just me wrote:Sigh. "Works" are indeed determined by intent. When the Book of Mormon says that an evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit, it means exactly that. It may produce "good fruit", for a time, but with the wrong intent. For example, I think that numerous Mormons seeking to gain "top dog" in the Celestial Kingdom, and particularly males who think they're going to some kind of "screwing heaven", are totally misguided, and have "wrong intent". I knew a faithful LDS man who really believed that he'd have 200 wives in the resurrection (he actually told me this), because of his "faithfulness". I'd honestly say that his dick-urges played a huge role in this. The Book of Mormon does not teach this, nor support it.


This really doesn't address my questions and the contradiction. Also, why sigh at me? Are you being condescending on purpose?
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_RayAgostini

Re: If Satan wrote the Book of Mormon...

Post by _RayAgostini »

just me wrote:Hmmm. How does Moses stack up?


Well for one, he wasn't allowed to lead his people to the "Promised Land". In spite of all of his heroism, he was rejected this honour. The Law of Moses was only a "schoolmaster", a preface to the Living Christ.

Lodge your complaints about Christ here:

Begin: (add whatever you feel necessary)
_RayAgostini

Re: If Satan wrote the Book of Mormon...

Post by _RayAgostini »

just me wrote:This really doesn't address my questions and the contradiction. Also, why sigh at me? Are you being condescending on purpose?


I'm "sighing" at how participation on this forum has blinded you to a balanced perspective.

Listen to DarthJ. He is unquestionably the God of this forum. And the really weird thing is that he may still be active in the LDS Church! lol.
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Re: If Satan wrote the Book of Mormon...

Post by _Nightlion »

DarkHelmet wrote:According to Mormon teachings, satan can perfectly imitate the feelings of the holy ghost. I don't remember joseph smith giving moroni the good spirit/evil spirit handshake test. Satan could have easily written the Book of Mormon and the moroni's promise happy feelings could be fabricated by satan.


DarkHelmet, please, there is no such teaching that satan can perfectly imitate the feelings of the Holy Ghost. Not the real HG. The recreational feeling of believing you are the best of the best, perhaps. That is a false spirit anyways.
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Re: If Satan wrote the Book of Mormon...

Post by _Drifting »

RayAgostini wrote:
Drifting wrote:
When Mormon's were instructed to collaberate with Hitler was that good people doing good, good people doing evil, evil people doing good or evil people doing evil?


Read, and absorb, and stop painting all Mormons with one broad brush:

Helmuth Hübener.


"For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water, neither can can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil."
Moroni 7:11

So is the link you provided an example of:
a. A good fountain bringing forth good water
b. A good fountain bringing forth bitter water (not an option according to Moroni)
c. A bitter fountain bringing forth good water (not an option according to Moroni)
d. A bitter fountain bringing forth bitter water
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