The Dead

[_Jersey Girl]

This bit, I suppose, given the fact that we are in a thread where a believer has labored at length to convince us that innocent suffering can all be part of her deity's loving purposes of promoting the welfare of what she conceives to be our immortal souls:


Jersey Girl wrote:
... great things can come out of tragedy, suffering and pain. In fact, I think that what moves and changes people the most, is the result of those.

I said nothing whatsoever about a soul.
I said nothing whatsoever about a deity.

[_Chap]

This bit, I suppose, given the fact that we are in a thread where a believer has labored at length to convince us that innocent suffering can all be part of her deity's loving purposes of promoting the welfare of what she conceives to be our immortal souls:


Jersey Girl wrote:
... great things can come out of tragedy, suffering and pain. In fact, I think that what moves and changes people the most, is the result of those.

I said nothing whatsoever about a soul.
I said nothing whatsoever about a deity.

My final comment was not directed to souls or deities either:

If by that you mean that the great things that come out of 'tragedy, suffering and pain' are on the whole greatly undesirable things, and that the changes the produce in people are mainly for the worse, I am entirely with you.

Otherwise, not.

Bad things are bad for you in my view. Period.

[_Jersey Girl]

Chap

If by that you mean that the great things that come out of 'tragedy, suffering and pain' are on the whole greatly undesirable things, and that the changes the produce in people are mainly for the worse, I am entirely with you.

No, I don't mean that at all. The great things I was thinking of have to do with change that positively impacts society.

[_keithb]

Do you mind if I reply to this in private messages? I can do it in just a few minutes if you're okay with it.

You can send me a private message, sure.

[_jo1952]

Bad things are bad for you in my view. Period.

Hi Chap,

You sure do sound normal to me...not even a bit abbey normal.

The purpose of the "Good News" message is to help us understand what the heck is going on; thus to provide hope. Perhaps you view that message as only a blind reaching out for something which does not exist as an effort to find an escape from the human condition. However, even if that message IS a lie, if the hope that it offers assuages the pain in any way for the person who accepts and believes it, I think that that aspect would be a good thing, even if it turns out only to be a bandage covering a bad wound.

You do seem to be trying to convince us that your actions and choice to NOT believe should cause believers to perceive you in some negative way. It's not working....at least not for me. Likewise, I don't think you perceive me in a negative way either.

Please let me know if I am reading you incorrectly.

Love,

jo

[_just me]

Ok, this is so super long and I typically detest posts that are so long and chopped up like this. I apologize in advance and bless all who choose to read it.

That is an interesting theory. Actually one that I like better than the go to earth or be eternally damned doctrine taught in The Plan O Salvation.

Hi JustMe,
Are you referring to the 1/3 of the hosts of heaven who were cast out with Satan? <snip>

Yes, I meant the third part who were damned with satan. I don’t see what they did that was damn-worthy. Maybe you could tell me what it was they did that was so terrible.

Inasmuch as I believe that all spirit children also serve as angels at least for a portion of their eternal existence, and some serve before and after their time on earth, I think that some of the angels who continue to serve God are those spirits who have decided (at least for now and for the time allotted for our earth) to not yet venture down to earth to receive their body. I think, though, that it is quite possible that at some point in their eternal journey, they may change their minds, as it is still their decision to make. I also have a theory that people who come to the earth who are really nasty, unhappy, and even evil people while they are here, may have been fence sitters during the councils in Heaven. They couldn’t make up their minds whether to follow Satan or to follow Christ. Since they will still be true to themselves and whatever personality their Intelligence is, that it will be manifested here in the flesh regardless of the fact that the veil is placed before the eyes of our remembrance. This means that it would be inevitable that they will choose evil over good…they still have control over their own choices. Of course, Father would know this about them, and would allow them the same chance everyone else has to participate in the Plan and still be able to place them on the earth at the times which would still help Him best fulfill His purposes.

Why do you think that unhappy people were fence-sitters? I am actually a little disturbed that you believe in a fence-sitter doctrine, to be honest. But, I understand where it is coming from. Why do you assume that those who liked satan’s plan better are “evil” or wicked or nasty, unhappy or miserable? Satan did not have an “evil” plan.

I’ll be more clear. Satan offered to be sent, well we are told it is satan by the LDS leaders. (Abr. 3:27) Another guy also offered, now the LDS church tells us that it was Jesus, but I think that the alternative interpretation of it being Adam/Michael makes more sense.
What did he do that was so bad? Then, it says he didn’t keep his first estate. Well, what does that mean?

When you say that god sends people at the best time to fulfill his purposes it makes god a user. We are all just pawns in some freakish nightmare of his.

But it still is distrubing to teach that people chose to come and live their s****y lives.

I certainly agree. However, they also knew ahead of time what the big picture was and it was worth it to them to come here anyway. After all, to have the opportunity to become a joint heir with Christ certainly would be a very powerful incentive to come here.

As a parent, it would be beyond my comprehension to tell my younger children that in order to live with me and be a joint heir with the oldest child that they need to FIRST go live on their own SECOND have all memory of me and their oldest sibling removed (forget about the mother, she doesn’t even count) THIRD get beat up, raped, diseased, etc and FOURTH do so all the while thanking me and singing my praises because another memory challenged human told them that is what I wanted.

Once we are here, if we get to hear the Gospel Message and are able to then understand what went on before this life, why we are here now, and where we are going, this knowledge makes whatever hardships we then endure much more easy to accept. If you do not have the opportunity to hear the Message, then we certainly can feel very lost and alone. Yet this perception is incorrect. Regardless of whether we have been taught the Gospel Message, Father is STILL aware of us and our needs and wants to help us the instant we reach out for help. Knock, and it shall be opened to you. Because our journey MUST be done in faith in order for the test to be of any worth to us, we cannot walk in proof. However, Father has not left us without any direction. That is what the message is for; to bring us hope and give us access to the assistance He has provided for the inhabitants of the earth; that being the Holy Ghost to witness to us the Truth of both Father and Son, as well as to guide us to all Truth.

This is where it will become very difficult for us to dialogue. You base a lot of your beliefs of fairness of the Plan on the concept that God has revealed his gospel over and over again since Adam. This just is not true. I worry that we will perhaps be talking past each other, but let’s see how this goes.
I do not feel comfort from the current LDS gospel message. Not in the least. The teachings do not make my life feel easier to handle or accept. It fails in that regard. Just because you and a very small fraction of the population find peace in it does not make the message itself true or peace-giving.

Again, I have a big problem with telling people that they agreed to come to earth and be tortured, raped, disemboweled, molested, starved, diseased, etc, etc. I have heard it used to basically tell people they have no room to complain because they agreed to come here to their life so just shut up and take it.

This is why spreading the Gospel Message is important! With its knowledge comes peace and understanding which spiritually speaking transcends worldly knowledge. It is also helpful to know that those who commit the atrocities will be paying for them. It angers me that there are individuals who use this knowledge to tell others they have no room to complain and to just shut up and take it. These individuals are in the unenviable and sinful position of judging others. The same judgments they mete out to others will be the same judgments used against them. I would pray for them and ask that God have mercy on them; they cannot know what is in another’s heart, or have any idea what another has experienced. This saddens me greatly and causes me concern for whatever punishments may be in store for them should they fail to sincerely repent.

The fact that you are concerned that people will be punished by your god is telling. I think that is ultimately the purpose of the religion, to make life feel more fair. “It’ll all work out in the end.” That is the true message of the LDS gospel.

Life isn't fair. Some people have the worst life experiences imaginable....actually beyond my wildest imagination. I can't even begin to comprehend a god who thinks it is a grand Plan to send me to my life, which while far from perfect is a rainbow unicorn ride compared to others, while sending some other spririt to live in squalor and starve and be riddled with disease and tortured and abused. A god with a Plan like this is an asshole, a monster, a devil.

Hey, there is no need for you to sugarcoat your opinion with me. Just let me know what you really are feeling!! :-)

:D

<snip>…even though I would remember being taught that God would never give us more than we could handle, I would often question this.

I believe the teaching that god won’t give people more than they can handle is damaging and demonstrably false. I can’t fully express how much I hate this teaching.

If I had not loved Jesus from the very beginning, I do not think I would be where I am today.

I am glad you have found peace and solace in your belief in Jesus. Too bad only a small percent of the human population has ever heard of the guy.

<snip>

Thank you for sharing something so deeply personal. You have clearly been through a lot.

<snip> I came to learn and realize and accept, that what I had been going through was NECESSARY. You will think that this is a crazy interpretation. But I am here to tell you that this personal, spiritual journey, HAD to be taken in order for me to learn what I have learned as a result of it. So I will tell you now, that in retrospect, the pain and suffering of my entire life HAS BEEN A BLESSING about which I can only touch upon the spiritual aspects. Without those experiences I would not now be receiving the epiphanies the Holy Ghost shares with me on an almost daily basis. A dam has burst, and in His Infinite Wisdom and Perfect Love, Father has personally seen to it that even me, His humble daughter, and loving servant, has been made aware that He KNOWS ME. THAT HIS BELOVED SON, Jesus THE Christ, LOVES ALL OF US, THAT Jesus LIVES in a manner and spiritual level which I had never experienced before even though I had already believed it, and I scarce can speak His name now without having my cup run over with joy that is impossible to describe, as it is other-worldly---it transcends all that is physical.

I wouldn’t call your interpretation of your life crazy. I think it is a very human response to extreme hardship. It is how we deal. We either have to come up with some way to make our experience “right” in our minds or we may kill ourselves or lash out or just be hopeless and miserable.
Because you are in the LDS tradition, you couched your interpretation in that context and within that worldview. That is also normal. If you were, I don’t know, Muslim or something you would have couched your interpretation within that worldview.
People of all stripes have had rebirth experiences like you described with and without a Jesus belief. It is a very human experience. The way we describe it, or the deities or things we ascribe the experience to, depend wholly on the religion/culture that we are in or influenced by.

You may perceive Him as a monster. I can only offer that your perception is in error. And I would love to discuss with you where you came up with your current pov.

Well, that would require me writing a short novel. LOL The god described in LDS theology and in the Old Testament is a reprehensible being. It all started with me questioning god commanded murder/killing/genocide. I am of the belief that a just, merciful, loving and benevolent god cannot also command or actually murder people. It is a contradiction. That is the short version.

I really hate that intelligence here is equated with being better and greater than those with lesser intelligence. That is just really so sad to me. The idea that god created these birth defects for people to live/die with is more than disheartening. How are these bodies best suited for these people?

You misunderstand. The Intelligences which have always co-existed with God have a very different definition than the one you are equating with as used here on the earth. The Intelligences of the eternities are “beings” <snip>

Okay, so there is a being inside the spirit inside the human body. Like a Russian doll set.  What makes some beings greater, better, more noble than others?

Based on who they already are, Father then works with them, working out what type of physical body they will have, when they will come to the earth, their birth circumstances, etc., all being an important aspect of their fulfilling the requirement of getting their physical body in order for them to continue to progress throughout eternity. You should not view a birth defect as some type of punishment for having a low IQ – NO! Rather, I view individuals who are given bodies with defects as being blessed, as they are protected from the buffetings of Satan – something the rest of us MUST contend with in our learning the effects of good and evil. Those individuals have spirits which are fragile and sweet and who have already, most likely, proven themselves well enough in the pre-existence to be obedient and strong enough to not have to learn much in the second estate – they only need to receive their physical body and cover that part of their eternal requirement. In fact, they are pre-guaranteed that they will end up in the Celestial Kingdom. What a blessing!!!! This is not a punishment or put down for stupidity or misbehavior. That is just a worldly perception; not a spiritual perception.

Just this whole theory really bothers me, so I am not sure how to respond.

God plans the demise of humans so that another human can serve? That is like me breaking the legs of one of my children so that the others can have the opportunity to take her meals and carry her around.

Again, you misunderstand. The early demise of any child before the age of accountability is ultimately a spiritual blessing for that individual. However, they fulfill more than one purpose; the first is to bless them with immediate entry into the Celestial Kingdom. The second is to provide others with an opportunity to serve one another. I see this as a win-win situation. However, I am seeing this situation through spiritual eyes. You are seeing it through worldly eyes and are not incorporating the spiritual significance of what is actually going on. This physical world was Created for our benefit; this does not mean, though, that what we see is real. The “Real” world is the spiritual realm. The physical world is temporary and has been set up as the stage or school for our learning. If all you are learning is about the physical world, then you are missing out on the spiritual world. It is the spiritual world which is real and which ultimately continues to exist in the eternities. This physical world is mortal and will die.

I’m not sure where I misunderstood. You seem to be saying exactly what I said. If dying before accountability is a blessing why don’t we kill children? Is it okay for me to kill a child? How about a severely mentally disabled adult who is unaccountable? What about old people who are no longer have their mental faculties in full use?
Is it okay for god to kill a child? Is it okay for god to kill unaccountable people?

God assigned people to come to the earth right before he murdered everyone with the flood. That is really very disturbing. That's like me having babies and then drowning them before they are 8 so they can get to the CK.

You should read the books of Enoch. They will open your eyes to a much better understanding of why God caused the flood. Also, I have come to understand that many times, God destroys mankind while they are in the flesh in order to stop them from continuing to commit more and more sin. When seen in this light, such things as the flood are actually evidence of physical death in order to save man from permanent spiritual death.

I’m pretty sure that I have read at least part of the Book of Enoch. Anyway, what you are describing is god taking away the agency of man. I thought that was “evil.” Killing someone to prevent them making bad choices is exactly what LDS say god can’t do…Right? He can’t kill or take out child molester and mass murderers because that would take away their agency.

As I see it, those who were born just before the time of the flood were most likely many of the fence sitters who couldn’t make up their minds for sure on who they should follow (i.e., either Jesus or Satan). They would have been the ones who would have sinned a great deal regardless of when they were brought to the earth. Noah and his family were the ONLY righteous people living on the earth at the time of the great flood. Please remember that just because they suffered this particular physical death, that they would have died anyway; they were mortal. It is NOT a statement or sentence meted out about where they will spend eternity. Mortal death is only physical death of the flesh body. The spirit lives on.

Do you really believe that everyone was “evil” but Noah and his family? Noah cursed his grandson because his son saw him naked. Noah was a winebibber. What are these crimes that the rest of the entire humanity was guilty of?
If we are all going to die anyway then why not just kill people? Your statement makes life not all that precious, special or important. You also have different standards for god than the rest of humanity. If a man kills his children we do not emulate him or call him a loving father.

However the LDS church teaches that everyone must accept the LDS ordinances in order to have eternal life.

I know that this is what many LDS members SAY. But technically, they are not sharing this belief in complete context. In fact, I don’t think they really know what the complete context is. So they continue to say this in ignorance. They also appear to ignore everything else they know about God, His attributes, and His dealings with ALL of His children.

It’s not just any members. It is one of the core doctrines of the LDS church today. No person can gain eternal life (exaltation) without first accepting all the LDS ordinances. I’m not sure how giving it context makes it any less elitist.

Here is my take on this. <snip a great deal of LDS mythology>
In these latter days, the vehicle through which all ordinances can be performed with the proper power and authority is currently the LDS Church. However, you know that the LDS Church performs these ordinances on behalf of both the living and the dead. As such, I consider the LDS Church to be a kind of “worker bee” (if you will) on behalf of the entire earth when it comes to performing ordinances for those who have not yet had them performed through the other vehicles set up by God throughout the age of mankind. In other words, I believe that ordinances HAVE been performed at other periods of time on the earth. I doubt they were called the LDS Church. Once all the work has been completed during the Millenium, and Christ reigns as Lord of Lords and King of Kings upon the NEW earth, I do not think the name of His Church is going to be the CoJCoLDS.

There are likely millions of humans who have lived who never even had a name. There are millions of humans who never married. These are problems for the LDS ordinance doctrine. I know that “everything will work out in the end” is the party line, but it leaves much to be desired.

To continue, I also do not believe that a person must be a member of the LDS Church to receive Salvation, achieve Exaltation, or to be able to enter any particular level of Heaven. We are saved by believing in and accepting Jesus as our Savior by virtue of His Atonement. The Church does not save us; no church can save anybody. Jesus saves us. The Church DOES perform necessary and required ordinances which can then either be accepted or rejected by the recipient. <snip>

This is not the LDS position, but thank you for sharing your particular interpretation. I still think it is very elitist. One must be Christian AND accept the LDS ordinances. You separate being a member of “the church” with the ordinances. The church itself doesn’t really do that. In fact, the confirmation of the Holy Ghost also makes you a member of the church, there isn’t even an option to get the ghost without membership.

PS Franktalk just asked me to let you know that he is an Old Testament guru. Since you seem to have some serious issues with God in the Old Testament, he is letting you know that he would be happy to discuss the Old Testament with you.

Sometimes I think about starting a thread about that god, but it honestly depresses me too much.

[_Chap]

The purpose of the "Good News" message is to help us understand what the heck is going on; thus to provide hope. Perhaps you view that message as only a blind reaching out for something which does not exist as an effort to find an escape from the human condition. However, even if that message IS a lie, if the hope that it offers assuages the pain in any way for the person who accepts and believes it, I think that that aspect would be a good thing, even if it turns out only to be a bandage covering a bad wound.

I wouldn't turn up at an LDS funeral with a placard saying "Your Mom is DEAD! Like permanently. Get over it! And soon it will be your turn to vanish into nothingness ...". In real life I am a monster of tact and tolerance, nodding and saying 'Oh, I see ...' when people tell me enthusiastically about their various ways of imagining themselves out of the human predicament. But this is a discussion board.

You do seem to be trying to convince us that your actions and choice to NOT believe should cause believers to perceive you in some negative way. It's not working....at least not for me. Likewise, I don't think you perceive me in a negative way either.

Please let me know if I am reading you incorrectly.

Love,

jo

I do irony a lot. I do appreciate that there are places where this can cause misunderstanding.

In another thread people on this board recently discussed the distinction between belief and faith. I am one of those who thinks that belief is not best thought of as something we can have a free choice about, since in a responsible and aware person belief must demand a basis of evidence. Faith on the other hand is a chosen attitude towards others: we exercise it towards other human beings every day. The question is whether there is anyone else out there to exercise it towards. I rather think not.

[_jo1952]

I wouldn't turn up at an LDS funeral with a placard saying "Your Mom is DEAD! Like permanently. Get over it! And soon it will be your turn to vanish into nothingness ...". In real life I am a monster of tact and tolerance, nodding and saying 'Oh, I see ...' when people tell me enthusiastically about their various ways of imagining themselves out of the human predicament. But this is a discussion board.

Ahhh, you have a sense of humor mixed with irony. "A monster of tact and tolerance"; hmmm, great intelligence and kindness. You sound like you would be fun to know in person while being able to be a steadfast and good solid friend.

I do irony a lot. I do appreciate that there are places where this can cause misunderstanding.

I agree that this can cause misunderstanding - especially on a discussion board where we cannot see your face or hear your voice for clues. If you should ever think I have presented my comments in an antagonistic fashion, please have me clarify myself, as that is not usually my intent. However, I up front freely confess great imperfections and may strike out if I have felt unfairly attacked. I also like to fight for, er...support the underdog, which can cause great confusion if I am misreading a situation. So my mouth can get me into trouble or create trouble when there was never a need for it....sigh.

OTOH, all bets are pretty much off in the chatroom!!!!! We all need to spend more time there....I have yet to figure out if there is a pattern of what the best times are that people are using it as I find it an excellent place for us to let our hair down and learn to appreciate each other on a more personal basis. Not only can we have fun there, it is a place we can find out when people have had really bad (or really good) days....what a great support system; especially for people who may never actually get to meet each other in person.

In another thread people on this board recently discussed the distinction between belief and faith. I am one of those who thinks that belief is not best thought of as something we can have a free choice about, since in a responsible and aware person belief must demand a basis of evidence. Faith on the other hand is a chosen attitude towards others: we exercise it towards other human beings every day. The question is whether there is anyone else out there to exercise it towards. I rather think not.

Interesting, this helps me understand you and where you are coming from. So I thank you for sharing this with me. I love meeting new people and learning about them. Now, inasmuch as I really do love people, I find that I like you as well, Chap. I don't want to get sappy, but I think you should know that you are already a blessing in my life.

Love,

jo

[_jo1952]

Just Me,

Just wanted you to know that I will be working on my response to you today. I do apologize for getting us into such a long and drawn out post. I know better than to do that. I'm going to try to tailor it down - perhaps into two posts to make it easier for us.

Have a wonderful day!!

Love,

jo

[_LDSToronto]

You misunderstand. The Intelligences which have always co-existed with God have a very different definition than the one you are equating with as used here on the earth. The Intelligences of the eternities are “beings” – they are not a statement of mans quantified IQ. Their existence as “beings” is in the “form” of Intelligence—it is who they are; uncreated because they have always existed--they have substance. Once they are organized and become spirit children of Father, He takes into consideration “who they are” – and they are all different – no two are exactly alike. Based on who they already are, Father then works with them, working out what type of physical body they will have, when they will come to the earth, their birth circumstances, etc., all being an important aspect of their fulfilling the requirement of getting their physical body in order for them to continue to progress throughout eternity. You should not view a birth defect as some type of punishment for having a low IQ – NO! Rather, I view individuals who are given bodies with defects as being blessed, as they are protected from the buffetings of Satan – something the rest of us MUST contend with in our learning the effects of good and evil. Those individuals have spirits which are fragile and sweet and who have already, most likely, proven themselves well enough in the pre-existence to be obedient and strong enough to not have to learn much in the second estate – they only need to receive their physical body and cover that part of their eternal requirement. In fact, they are pre-guaranteed that they will end up in the Celestial Kingdom. What a blessing!!!! This is not a punishment or put down for stupidity or misbehavior. That is just a worldly perception; not a spiritual perception.

I enjoy reading your point of view, Jo - thanks for engaging us.

Concerning what you've posted above, it's my experience that the only people who view suffering as a blessing, you know, real life-altering bottom-of-the-pit suffering, are LDS who haven't suffered a whole lot.

Everyone experiences sorrow to some degree, but as fat-cat North Americans, most of us don't understand the first thing about suffering. When LDS get up to the pulpit during F&T meeting and cry because they've lost their job or have just found out their mom has cancer, these things are not happy moments, but they also don't measure up against the poverty, war, violence and terror that a vast swath of humanity experiences every single day of their lives. And yet, I find that North American LDS are constantly seeking simpatico with true suffering in some vain attempt to justify the receipt of further blessings, or to display that they are in God's sight.

Suffering is not a blessing. Suffering is hell.

H.