The Kingdom of Jesus

[_Hoops]

Do you think people are born evil?

Yes.

I guess that is an orthodox Christian position,

It is.

but it's always a little jarring to hear people say it.

I understand.

I would offer this: if people are not born evil, then (with one exception) where is the one person ( or a hundred, thousand, millions) who have lived a sinless life?

I think this is a biblically supported position.

[_Runtu]

I would offer this: if people are not born evil, then (with one exception) where is the one person ( or a hundred, thousand, millions) who have lived a sinless life?

I think this is a biblically supported position.

I suppose it depends on how you define sin. And yes, it is a Biblically supported position, or millions of Bible believers wouldn't take that position.

I guess at this stage of my life (no longer young, not quite in a nursing home), I see good and evil as categories that we assign behavior to, depending on our moral and ethical beliefs. What I think you're referring to as evil is disobedience to God's commandments, which is again, what I would expect. I think good and evil are far more complicated than that.

[_just me]

War as a tool for peace is a contradiction and can never be so.

In a spiritual sense, I agree. However, war has often resulted in peace between governments.

War does not lead to peace. It never has and it never will.

It often has and will continue.

Could I please get a citation for this? Thank you.

[_Hoops]

I suppose it depends on how you define sin.

It does indeed. I define, as do many of like-minded folks, as seperation from God. We've taken sin-ful BEHAVIOR and conflated it to mean sin. But that's NOT biblical.

And yes, it is a Biblically supported position, or millions of Bible believers wouldn't take that position.

Yes.

I guess at this stage of my life (no longer young, not quite in a nursing home), I see good and evil as categories that we assign behavior to,

I understand. However, when discussing Christianity, we have to set that aside because it's not what we mean.

What I think you're referring to as evil is disobedience to God's commandments, which is again, what I would expect.

Not quite. Evil is a spiritual condition that allows for sinful behavior. Evil is seperation from God, knowing who He is, recognizing who He is. See Genesis for the first example of such. The telling point is that virtually every religion that is not Christian will agree that Jesus is the One True God. He is always changed into something other than that. I recognize that evil is a loaded word, but that's our doing, not God's. Evil has denotations that we've thrown in that detract from it classical meaning.

I think good and evil are far more complicated than that.

In terms of behavior, I agree. Which is the nice thing about Christianity. Behavior has nothing to do with it.

[_Hoops]

War does not lead to peace. It never has and it never will.

It often has and will continue.

Could I please get a citation for this? Thank you.

Sure. there is peace between U.S. and Germany, Italy, Japan. U.K. and France. relative peace between Egypt and Israel.

[_Runtu]

It does indeed. I define, as do many of like-minded folks, as seperation from God. We've taken sin-ful BEHAVIOR and conflated it to mean sin. But that's NOT biblical.

In that case, Mormon doctrine is in complete agreement with you, though it does not call it "sin" per se. Here's GA Gerald Lund: "The fall of Adam brought two kinds of death into the world—physical death, which is the separation of body and spirit, and spiritual death, which is separation of man from God." So, in Mormonism, what you call sin is called "spiritual death."

I understand. However, when discussing Christianity, we have to set that aside because it's not what we mean.

Not quite. Evil is a spiritual condition that allows for sinful behavior. Evil is seperation from God, knowing who He is, recognizing who He is. See Genesis for the first example of such. The telling point is that virtually every religion that is not Christian will agree that Jesus is the One True God. He is always changed into something other than that. I recognize that evil is a loaded word, but that's our doing, not God's. Evil has denotations that we've thrown in that detract from it classical meaning.

It's just different terminology. Mormonism has exactly the same teaching. Here's Alma 41:11: "11 And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness."

In terms of behavior, I agree. Which is the nice thing about Christianity. Behavior has nothing to do with it.

Again, if that's where you're coming from, you are on the same page as the Mormons.

[_Hoops]

I've never had much problem with Book of Mormon. It would seem to agree with MCism fairly comprehensively.

No, my problem is the other troubling sccriptures and teachings. So I can't agree with you the LDSism, as practiced, has much to do with Christianity at all.

I suspect a LDS will show up in this thread and correct me about what sin is, how behavior effects our salvation, the nature of Godhead (Trinity), and others. Those are fundamental Christian beliefs that LDS are willing to jettison. Which is fine.

Though we're headed in a direction JM doesn't want to go.

[_Runtu]

I've never had much problem with Book of Mormon. It would seem to agree with MCism fairly comprehensively.

No, my problem is the other troubling sccriptures and teachings. So I can't agree with you the LDSism, as practiced, has much to do with Christianity at all.

I suspect a LDS will show up in this thread and correct me about what sin is, how behavior effects our salvation, the nature of Godhead (Trinity), and others. Those are fundamental Christian beliefs that LDS are willing to jettison. Which is fine.

Though we're headed in a direction JM doesn't want to go.

Yeah, I am not really interested in discussing whether Mormonism is "Christian" enough.

[_RockSlider]

If such a change is possible why has it not been done already? What is the point of letting humans continue to murder and rape one another if there is a way to make it stop?

Why do some people get to be born and live during this utopian era while others have to live through being raped and tortured and killed?

Here’s why for the majority

“We will place before them the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and we will allow Lucifer, our common enemy, whom we have thrust out to tempt them, and to try them, that they may know by their own experience the good from the evil.”

“You must eat of this fruit so as to comprehend that everything has its opposite: good and evil, virtue and vice, light and darkness, health and sickness, pleasure and pain—thus your eyes will be opened and you will have knowledge. “
“Is there no other way?”
“There is no other way.”

I have no answer for those born mentally handicapped, drowned under age 8 by parents or those born after the start of the millennial reign

[_Buffalo]

Another question about this whole thing: why the archaic political structures (monarchy, feudalism) in the Kingdom? Why the quaint clothing (flowing robes). It's as if Jesus hates technology and progress.

At this point it should be clear that the reason is because it was invented by human beings during an era when that was all they could really conceive of. (and we're not much better)