The Church of Today and The Church of the Past

[_Tator]

As far as I know, there aren't documentations of ceremonial rape and group sex. But then again, who knows what went undocumented?

I doubt the official record would record ceremonial rape and group sex. The scribes would likely have resigned on the spot.

Brigham might have been a despot, a jerk, and hard man, but I don't think he was a pervert. Jeffs is just slime.

They are all slime. Joe, Brig and Warren. Slime is slime, do we need to determine the degree, texture, smell, consistency, color, etc. of the slime?

[_Polygamy-Porter]

Thews--

You and I disagree on the base doctrine of the LDS Church. To me, the core doctrine of the LDS Church is the same as many other Christian churches. That is:

1. Christ lived.
2. Christ died for our sins.
3. Christ was resurrected.
4. If we follow his commandments, we can return to him.


This is the core doctrine I believe in. It is a core doctrine of the LDS Church, as well as the doctrine of many other churches. If I choose to worship Christ, taking in this core doctrine while sitting in an LDS Church, or sitting in a Catholic Church, it does not matter.

However to worship this Christ personage inside the Mormon chapel, one must first see the doorman who is Joseph Smith.

[_why me]

They are all slime. Joe, Brig and Warren. Slime is slime, do we need to determine the degree, texture, smell, consistency, color, etc. of the slime?

I don't think that Joseph Smith was slime and neither was Brigham. They had a calling and they did it well. The utah saints needed a brigham to keep them together and he did create a fine community of people that became Utah. One can't fault Brigham for that.

[_why me]

However to worship this Christ personage inside the Mormon chapel, one must first see the doorman who is Joseph Smith.

Interesting that you hate the LDS church so much. It must be difficult for you. But if you think abou it, the LDS church is not so bad. Mormons tend to be good people and a credit to their town or city.

[_thews]

However to worship this Christ personage inside the Mormon chapel, one must first see the doorman who is Joseph Smith.

Interesting that you hate the LDS church so much. It must be difficult for you. But if you think abou it, the LDS church is not so bad. Mormons tend to be good people and a credit to their town or city.

You admire Joseph Smith for his accomplishments, constantly stating what people would or wouldn't do if he was a "fraudster". While you attend Catholic mass and spin all the things that don't make sense, what you fail to acknowledge is that joseph Smith was a false prophet of God. In choosing what one aligns themselves with regarding religion, you're so all over the map it's hard to define. Where do you stand whyme? Was Joseph Smith a prophet of God and do you follow his teachings?

[_Zelder]

As far as Jacob chapter 2, try answering/digesting all the actual data I've posted thus far.

I read this as saying, please ignore Jacob chapter 2 so that you can take a more narrow, and one sided view of this subject. Focus in on the sensational quotes. Don't step back and try to rationalize the sensational with the rest of the story. The bigger picture does not help my effort to make the church look really evil.

I have a few issues with the church myself but the narrow minded one sided thinkers get little respect from me.

In the end you are still wrong about liz. There is no solid argument for her to believe that she has to accept the idea of sharing her husband in the afterlife.

You come across as wanting people to agree with you and for everyone to hate the church as much as you. You act like there is no way anyone would believe to any degree if they knew the whole story like you do. The problem with you is in fact that you don't acknowledge the whole story. A lot of people know, but they still believe.

[_Drifting]

There is no solid argument for her to believe that she has to accept the idea of sharing her husband in the afterlife.

I agree that current Mormonism allows for liz and her husband to have a choice about it and still live in the CK. But Brigham Young didn't agree with that position when he was Prophet and speaking for the Church on the subject. Nor did D&C 132 state that there was a choice for CK dwellers, prior to latter day reinterpretation.

[_Zelder]

I agree that current Mormonism allows for liz and her husband to have a choice about it and still live in the CK. But Brigham Young didn't agree with that position when he was Prophet and speaking for the Church on the subject. Nor did D&C 132 state that there was a choice for CK dwellers, prior to latter day reinterpretation.

What you say about Brigham Young may be true but I'd like to learn more about context and background behind the BY quotes to decide for sure. I'm still skepitcal.

I disagree about D&C 132 though. The new and everlasting covenant is marriage through proper authority. That's it. Plural marriage is allowed but not mandated.

Verse 61 states that the first wife must give her consent in order for her husband to be allowed a second wife. That is if he desires a second wife.

Verse 64 states that the man who holds the keys of the sealing power (a.k.a. the prophet) can take a second wife even if the first does not consent. Therefore, only the president of the church is officially mandated in Section 132. Everyone else has a choice.

No matter what Brigham Young taught, D&C 132 obviously does not mandate plural marriage for all people.

Again lets on forget that Jacob Chapter 2 condems polygamy and treats polygamy as though it is the exception rather than the rule.

[_why me]

I think that another thing that will happen, and is already starting to happen, is that the NOMs will be be the new TBMs. ;-)

What I mean by that is that, eventually, it will be the NOMs who are leading the Church in new ways.

I don't think so because if the NOMs are leading the church it will cease to be a church since NOMs are not that committed to the church and will lead the church in its own directions at a local level. And besides, what exactly is a NOM?. Is there one definition that fits all?

[_Drifting]

I agree that current Mormonism allows for liz and her husband to have a choice about it and still live in the CK. But Brigham Young didn't agree with that position when he was Prophet and speaking for the Church on the subject. Nor did D&C 132 state that there was a choice for CK dwellers, prior to latter day reinterpretation.

What you say about Brigham Young may be true but I'd like to learn more about context and background behind the BY quotes to decide for sure. I'm still skepitcal.

Brigham Young said you are damned if you deny polygamy.

"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266). Also, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269).

Brigham Young made these statements when he was Prophet and with full knowledge of the content of D&C 132. Was he wrong?