Fence Sitter wrote:Maybe it is too simplistic but in discussions of this sort the part I don't get is why the lack of a complete understanding in a scientific process has any bearing on the arguments in favor or against the existence of God.
I think it raises a plethora of interesting questions. If God had the intention of creating human beings as we are, cosmological evolution, abiogenesis, and biological evolution contain so many random stochastic processes, plus counter factual creaturely freedoms, it may not be possible to actualize this world, which would be some strong proof against the existence of God.
I know that I speak for almost no one here when I say that the answer to most of your questions are:
"We really don't know."
Please don't be offended, but on what basis do you make this statement?
Is it just that no scientific claim is ever made in a completely final "this-will-never-change" manner, unlike some religious statements? If so, fine, but then your observation would also apply to such things as "Why is the perihelion of Mercury precessing as it does?", or "How do identical twins come about?". In that sense there is nothing special about current ideas about the possible origin of living cells.
If you just mean that there are currently a number of possible mechanisms under discussion for how the first living cells could have appeared but that lively debate continues, yes, but so what? The distance between that state of affairs and the "We really don't know" mumbled by Mormon spokesmen in response to questions about the denial of the priesthood to black men is so huge as to make the two statements utterly different in kind.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Sorry this took so long. I was waylaid in my self assigned task by the discharge of some domestic duties.
The way I think about abiogenesis is to look at the complex chemistry involved in simple life forms and determine how many of the chemical components required could have been hanging around before life began.
Many creationists I talk to seem to think that the evolution of life from non-life involves the evolution (or transition) from non-organic (or inorganic) to organic. This is not the case. There were plenty of organic compounds around before life began. (Organic compounds are carbon based compounds comprised of carbon and hydrogen often with heteroatoms such as oxygen, nitrogen, and sulfur (CHONS compounds). Abiogenesis depended on them.
Some of the classes of organic chemicals that would be needed to form simple cells include amino acids (for proteins), nucleic acids (for RNA and DNA), and lipids or fatty acids for the formation of micelles or crude cell walls. These classes of chemicals were all available in the primordial world. In fact, simple amino acids have even been detected in comets.
As Chap pointed out, the relatively low oxygen (chemically reducing) conditions on the primordial Earth would have favored the spontaneous production of a number of organic molecules needed for life, including amino acids and nucleic acids, provided that energy sources were available to drive the reactions. Such energy sources could include lightning, and high energy impacts of materials from outer space as two examples.
The Miller-Urey experiment in the 1950's demonstrated the formation of amino acids in a relatively reducing atmosphere driven by electrical discharge. Similarly, nucleic acids were formed in ammonium cyanide solutions again under the influence of electric discharge. Repeated freeze thaw cycles have also been reported to promote the formation of certain nucleic acids.
In order to form simple life from non-living chemicals, a great deal of chemical self organizing behavior would be required. When we look at these classes of chemicals, it is possible to observe a variety of self organizing behaviors.
For example, when placed in water at the right pH and temperature, lipids (one type of amphiphilic compound), will quickly self-organize into individual micelles (like soap bubbles) that have many of the characteristics of cell membranes, including the ability to self replicate. In an aqueous solution with other dissolved components, other organic molecules will tend to be concentrated inside these micelles.
A next crucial step is to show that these various components can polymerize when needed to form extended complex molecules built from simple monomers. As described above, amino acids need to polymerize to form proteins, nucleic acids need to polymerize to form RNA, and saccharides (simple sugars) need to form polysaccharides.
RNA monomers that come in contact with catalytic clay substrates can self-organize into simple RNA oligomers. In more elaborate experiments, wherein naturally occurring RNA monomers are made available in solution, the resulting species of the RNA polymers actually evolves in a way such that the energetically most favored species are eventually formed in the highest concentrations Sometimes at the expense of less energetically favored species (survival of the fittest).
Given the basic building blocks available on primordial Earth (under conditions that no longer exist, by the way), there are several hypotheses about how these building blocks were organized to form life. Two of the best known are "metabolism first" , postulating that iron sulfides found at subsea vents provided the energy to drive metabolic reactions, and "information first" or the "RNA world" hypothesis.
So, the case for abiogenesis comes down to this. All of the basic building blocks for simple viral and single cell life were available in the primordial world, as was energy to drive metabolic reactions and catalysts to promote polymerization of amino acid into proteins and nucleic acids into RNA. Self organization of lipids to form cell membrane type structures has been demonstrated in aqueous solutions, and self organization of RNA has been demonstrated on catalytic substrates and in solution. Autocatalysis by RNA has also been demonstrated.
It then becomes a probabilities game, wherein each step forward forms a new stable state that is a platform from which the next step can be made. The chemical changes needed accumulate over millions of years and trillions of dice rolls.
Over millions of years and in a countess variety of situations, the self organizing information molecules and self replicating containment and isolating molecules were able to organize at new levels into protocells, and then prokaryotic cells, and then to eukaryotic cells ( by the simple incorporation of viruses or other prokaryotes) to form more complex multi cellular systems.
Although we do not yet know enough detail of how these processes came about to replicate them in the laboratory, that day is certainly coming.
This makes much more sense than saying that a magical being said some magical words and "poof", there were Adam and Eve in a magical garden in Daviss County MO. (At least to me it does.)
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."
DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
Sorry this took so long. I was waylaid in my self assigned task by the discharge of some domestic duties.
No problem
The way I think about abiogenesis is to look at the complex chemistry involved in simple life forms and determine how many of the chemical components required could have been hanging around before life began.
Many creationists I talk to seem to think that the evolution of life from non-life involves the evolution (or transition) from non-organic (or inorganic) to organic. This is not the case. There were plenty of organic compounds around before life began. (Organic compounds are carbon based compounds comprised of carbon and hydrogen often with heteroatoms such as oxygen, nitrogen, and sulfur (CHONS compounds). Abiogenesis depended on them.
Some of the classes of organic chemicals that would be needed to form simple cells include amino acids (for proteins), nucleic acids (for RNA and DNA), and lipids or fatty acids for the formation of micelles or crude cell walls. These classes of chemicals were all available in the primordial world. In fact, simple amino acids have even been detected in comets.
As Chap pointed out, the relatively low oxygen (chemically reducing) conditions on the primordial Earth would have favored the spontaneous production of a number of organic molecules needed for life, including amino acids and nucleic acids, provided that energy sources were available to drive the reactions. Such energy sources could include lightning, and high energy impacts of materials from outer space as two examples.
The Miller-Urey experiment in the 1950's demonstrated the formation of amino acids in a relatively reducing atmosphere driven by electrical discharge. Similarly, nucleic acids were formed in ammonium cyanide solutions again under the influence of electric discharge. Repeated freeze thaw cycles have also been reported to promote the formation of certain nucleic acids.
In order to form simple life from non-living chemicals, a great deal of chemical self organizing behavior would be required. When we look at these classes of chemicals, it is possible to observe a variety of self organizing behaviors.
For example, when placed in water at the right pH and temperature, lipids (one type of amphiphilic compound), will quickly self-organize into individual micelles (like soap bubbles) that have many of the characteristics of cell membranes, including the ability to self replicate. In an aqueous solution with other dissolved components, other organic molecules will tend to be concentrated inside these micelles.
A next crucial step is to show that these various components can polymerize when needed to form extended complex molecules built from simple monomers. As described above, amino acids need to polymerize to form proteins, nucleic acids need to polymerize to form RNA, and saccharides (simple sugars) need to form polysaccharides.
RNA monomers that come in contact with catalytic clay substrates can self-organize into simple RNA oligomers. In more elaborate experiments, wherein naturally occurring RNA monomers are made available in solution, the resulting species of the RNA polymers actually evolves in a way such that the energetically most favored species are eventually formed in the highest concentrations Sometimes at the expense of less energetically favored species (survival of the fittest).
Given the basic building blocks available on primordial Earth (under conditions that no longer exist, by the way), there are several hypotheses about how these building blocks were organized to form life. Two of the best known are "metabolism first" , postulating that iron sulfides found at subsea vents provided the energy to drive metabolic reactions, and "information first" or the "RNA world" hypothesis.
So, the case for abiogenesis comes down to this. All of the basic building blocks for simple viral and single cell life were available in the primordial world, as was energy to drive metabolic reactions and catalysts to promote polymerization of amino acid into proteins and nucleic acids into RNA. Self organization of lipids to form cell membrane type structures has been demonstrated in aqueous solutions, and self organization of RNA has been demonstrated on catalytic substrates and in solution. Autocatalysis by RNA has also been demonstrated.
It then becomes a probabilities game, wherein each step forward forms a new stable state that is a platform from which the next step can be made. The chemical changes needed accumulate over millions of years and trillions of dice rolls.
Over millions of years and in a countess variety of situations, the self organizing information molecules and self replicating containment and isolating molecules were able to organize at new levels into protocells, and then prokaryotic cells, and then to eukaryotic cells ( by the simple incorporation of viruses or other prokaryotes) to form more complex multi cellular systems.
Although we do not yet know enough detail of how these processes came about to replicate them in the laboratory, that day is certainly coming.
First, and most important in my opinion, I want to extend you a genuine thank you for the very kind, respectful, warm, and generous manner that you have chosen in making your reply to me. (I really do appreciate it a lot) :)
I will digest it (Or at least the parts I can understand of it) to see if I can gain a deeper understanding of what/why/how people who believe like you answer the question of abiogenesis.
Again, I thank you for the reply, and double thank you for the manner you provided it.
This makes much more sense than saying that a magical being said some magical words and "poof", there were Adam and Eve in a magical garden in Daviss County MO. (At least to me it does.)
If you are truly interested in this stuff, there are a number of good videos that describe and explain the main points that I made in more detail using illustrations and animations.
Some of them use different terms than I used, but the ideas are pretty much the same. The URL for one such video is shown below.