Helping Kevin Graham's Unbelief

[_CaliforniaKid]

Actually, smarter people than Kevin or I, who have been as committed to science and rationality and non-contradiction, have been able to deal with a broad range of cognitive dissonance in healthy and edifying ways that not only allowed for growth in spiritual faith, but enhanced growth in the same.

I beg to differ. If said persons have chosen to simply "deal with" cognitive dissonance rather than resolving it, then they are not as committed to non-contradiction as those of us who have made the decision to abandon religious beliefs. Those of us who have resolved our dissonance through apostasy tend to be highly committed to maintaining consistency in all aspects of our worldview. By contrast, many of the intelligent believers who have chosen to keep the faith in the face of contradictions have done so because there are other things they value more highly than consistency. Some of the names that come to mind are mfbukowski, Don Bradley, and Jacob Baker, all of whom find personal fulfillment or pragmatic value in Mormonism that they feel is more important than perfect intellectual consistency. I can respect and appreciate that decision, but I cannot accept it for myself because I have different priorities.

And let's be honest. When you come in here saying "humility" is the key to maintaining faith, what you're essentially saying is that our prioritization of intellectual consistency over other considerations is fallacious and perhaps even immoral, and you think we should change our priorities to more closely align with your own. I reject your authority to make that judgment.

[_Chap]

... I am here simply to offer Kevin help, if he wants it, in achieving his stated desire.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

What on earth, given his repeatedly exemplified attitude to you and your point of view in a large number of discussions on this board and elsewhere, makes you think that there is the slightest likelihood that Kevin Graham would come to you if he had an issue of religious belief that he wanted to resolve?

Frankly, it is about as likely as the NAACP ringing up the KKK to ask if they know a good public relations firm. Or vice versa.

I can't believe this is not blindingly obvious to you. So why on earth are you wasting your time like this? Masochism? A perverse desire to be able to say one day, under some imaginary circumstances when someone may care about your response "I offered Kevin Graham my help and he rejected it"?

[_Shulem]

You want to score points with Kevin?

Let me tell you 3 simple things you must explain to his satisfaction if you want him to profess his faith in Joseph Smith, translator and seer.

1. What is the king's name in Facsimile No. 3?
2. Where is the name Shulem written in the writing?
3. Why is Anubis called a slave?

Paul O

I am sure this was well intended. However, it is clear that it is made by some more expert in how to lose faith rather than how to retain and grow in faith. And, since Kevin's stated desire is to gain faith, I hope you will forgive me if I rely instead on the wisdom and advise of the experts on how to succeeded in faith.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Yes, you're right. My post was well intended.

The rest of your response was as empty as anything Thomas S. Monson or any of the other prophets have said about the mistranslations of Facismile No. 3. So, you're in good company, Wade. You're as dumb as the prophets.

Sleep well.

Paul O

[_wenglund]

I'm a little unsure of just what this step entails. How can I understand to what degree and what kind of patience it is I need in order to be helped in my unbelief? I'm a father of two children. I'm pretty sure I learned patience through that experience. Does that count?

Actually, you don't need to understand the degree and kind of patience needed. You simply need to be patient until I am ready and in the best position to help Kevin and you.

What do I need to think about vis a vis Kevin?

All you need to think about is that Kevin is the one who first expressed his desire to have faith, and that I came here with the primary purpose of offering help to him. My helping you with your stated desire, then, is secondary to me helping him, and will likely coincide with my helping him.

In short, wait patiently until Kevin weighs in and we see where things go from there.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

Wade,

There are many reasons why I would love the LDS Church to be true and I'd like to think I'm humble enough to admit that I don't always have all the answers. Mormonism is the emotional language I grew up with and in many ways defined important parts of my life. I think it would have been easier for me to have stayed as a Mormon (not as rewarding, but easier). If you really have some way of showing it is true other than judgmental platitudes or faulty logic then I would love to hear about it.

Thanks,

Hasa Diga Eebowai

That is great to hear. Stay tuned.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Shulem]

Gottit! But ... do I just need to avoid acquiring new non-faith-promoting knowledge, or do I also need to forget the inconvenient facts that I already know?

Just look at the Facsimile and have faith that there really is a king's name written above the head of Isis who is really just the king letting Abraham sit in his throne before the gods of Egypt. Also, have faith that the name Shulem really is written in the hieroglyphic writing because Egyptologist John Gee is still a faithful member of the church and has not alerted the saints about any problem with the name. You must also have faith that Joseph Smith knew how to properly interpret Egyptian religion and his calling the god Anubis a slave was proper because Anubis needs to learn to humble himself and not take that honor upon himself.

There. My faith in Mormonism has been restored! Church on Sunday.

Thanks Wade! You've saved my soul. Now can I give you a gay kiss? I promise to turn you on.

Paul O

[_wenglund]

So that's all right then. Can you just show us an example of (say) a viable solution to this problem:

Yes. However, this so-called problem is symptomatic of a core problem that needs first to be addressed. Stay tuned.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_EAllusion]

And let's be honest. When you come in here saying "humility" is the key to maintaining faith, what you're essentially saying is that our prioritization of intellectual consistency over other considerations is fallacious and perhaps even immoral, and you think we should change our priorities to more closely align with your own. I reject your authority to make that judgment.

Nah. He's saying you lack humility which is a necessary prerequisite to obtaining validation of the Mormon faith directly from God and accepting God knows more than you. Mostly he's just saying you lack humility.

[_Chap]

... Stay tuned.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

No thanks.

I have seen other examples of your endlessly prolix posting style, a kind of agonizingly prolonged verbal strip-tease that never reveals anything significant - and what little is revealed markedly reduces one's interest in seeing more.

And to repeat: how you could ever imagine that Kevin Graham would turn to you for help is deeply puzzling to me.

[_wenglund]

Ah-hah! I am learning about faith.

So the first step in gaining faith is to decide to pay no attention to facts that might not be conducive to you acquiring it?

Nope. The first step for you, which is somewhat different for Cam, is to avoid being presumptuous and prone to jumping to false conclusion.

It is clear from your statements that, like with others chiming in on this thread, while you know how to lose faith, you don't know how to properly retain and grow in faith. I happen to be experienced and successful in the latter. So, if you actually wish to learn about faith, wait patiently for my instructions, and listen humbly with the intent to learn.

Gottit! But ... do I just need to avoid acquiring new non-faith-promoting knowledge, or do I also need to forget the inconvenient facts that I already know?

See above.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-