Kids who die before age 8 DON'T automatically go to the C.K.

[_Darth J]

I wonder if there is a Star Wars discussion board I can get on so I can argue how things that Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock did prove that Luke is not really Princess Leia's brother.

[_Yoda]

I wonder if there is a Star Wars discussion board I can get on so I can argue how things that Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock did prove that Luke is not really Princess Leia's brother.

Now, Darth, don't be silly. Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock are in a completely different universe than Luke Skywalker and Princess Leia. It is physically impossible for them to have done anything that would prove your claim.

[_Yoda]

Where is Droopy to pin a big red "A" on Tobin for us?

Tobin is clearly teaching the philosophies of men (him) mingled with scripture.

But he's not hardly the only Mormon who has his own set of personal doctrines on these "hard questions" of Mormonism.

There was a guy in the stake I grew up in who was supposedly one of the most doctrinally knowledgeable people ever to walk the earth (Patriarch, Mission Pres, Stake Pres). I asked him about this men/women ratio problem in the CK. He said that all the males who died before 8 would be angels-only in the CK, but that the females would be resurrected with "a full set of equipment under the hood" in order to "bear the souls of men" (and women also, I presume). He said the only men who would procreate in the CK had to have been married in mortality and sealed to his wife and all that jazz. I don't remember if he said it was good enough to get the sealing via proxy after you were dead. I seem to remember it that you actually had to have been married and sealed while on the earth "by the Priesthood".

So there you have it.

I think things like this must be in an "addendum" you receive when you get your second annointing.

Hardly. To believe God is equitable, fair and just is not the doctrines of men. To believe, because the scriptures and prophets teach it, that all men must be tried and tested, even as Abraham was, by the Lord before they can be exalted and enter the CK is not the doctrines of men. I am simply pointing out that this idea that fetuses are automatically resurrected, exalted, and enter the CK is pure non-sense. It is simply not part of the gospel.

Wait, are we discussing aborted fetuses, or babies who die before the age of accountability?

[_Yoda]

Let me point out one thing: your personal ideas about religion are 100% irrelevant to this thread. The OP is discussing the ramifications of LDS doctrine (not Tobin doctrine) in light of real-world infant mortality estimates and the LDS teaching that ALL children who die before the age of accountability are guaranteed to go to the Celestial Kingdom.

Exactly.

Tobin, please refrain from further derailing this thread.

I'm not derailing the thread. I have pointed out repeatedly why your views of the Gospel are incorrect and so your premise is completely false. You can not possibly think you can reach the conclusion like "Men will have to share their Wives in the CK" is correct, if you start off with a false premise.

(Moderator Note) Your current supporting evidence has been politely disproved. Please provide other evidence or come up with a different argument. Going on the same tact is derailment, and I will have to split the thread.

[_Tobin]

Let me point out one thing: your personal ideas about religion are 100% irrelevant to this thread. The OP is discussing the ramifications of LDS doctrine (not Tobin doctrine) in light of real-world infant mortality estimates and the LDS teaching that ALL children who die before the age of accountability are guaranteed to go to the Celestial Kingdom.

Exactly.

Tobin, please refrain from further derailing this thread.

I'm not derailing the thread. I have pointed out repeatedly why your views of the Gospel are incorrect and so your premise is completely false. You can not possibly think you can reach the conclusion like "Men will have to share their Wives in the CK" is correct, if you start off with a false premise.

(Moderator Note) Your current supporting evidence has been politely disproved. Please provide other evidence or come up with a different argument. Going on the same tact is derailment, and I will have to split the thread.

Liz, what on earth are you talking about? Simply making the assertion above "Let me point out one thing: your personal ideas about religion are 100% irrelevant to this thread. The OP is discussing the ramifications of LDS doctrine (not Tobin doctrine) in light of real-world infant mortality estimates and the LDS teaching that ALL children who die before the age of accountability are guaranteed to go to the Celestial Kingdom." isn't politely disproving a single thing. It's an unfounded assertion. You'll note that Nightlion also strongly disagrees with the premise. And I have quoted LDS scriptures and prophets in support of my argument and I strongly assert you are NOT acting as moderator, but instead as a biased observer here.

[_Yoda]

Liz, what on earth are you talking about? Simply making the assertion above "Let me point out one thing: your personal ideas about religion are 100% irrelevant to this thread. The OP is discussing the ramifications of LDS doctrine (not Tobin doctrine) in light of real-world infant mortality estimates and the LDS teaching that ALL children who die before the age of accountability are guaranteed to go to the Celestial Kingdom." isn't politely disproving a single thing. It's an unfounded assertion. You'll note that Nightlion also strongly disagrees with the premise. And I have quoted LDS scriptures and prophets in support of my argument and I strongly assert you are NOT acting as moderator, but instead as a biased observer here.

Unlike Nightlion, your arguments and your references have been repeatedly refuted. You have failed to produce additional evidence from doctrinal settings supporting your claim.

I have not split anything yet. I also asked for further clarification of what is being argued here in my "poster mode". If you think that I make an unfair call, please refer it to Shades. Since I am a participant on this thread, I will abducate to one of the other moderators to actually make any splits on this thread.

[_Darth J]

(Moderator Note) Your current supporting evidence has been politely disproved. Please provide other evidence or come up with a different argument. Going on the same tact is derailment, and I will have to split the thread.

Liz, what on earth are you talking about? Simply making the assertion above "Let me point out one thing: your personal ideas about religion are 100% irrelevant to this thread. The OP is discussing the ramifications of LDS doctrine (not Tobin doctrine) in light of real-world infant mortality estimates and the LDS teaching that ALL children who die before the age of accountability are guaranteed to go to the Celestial Kingdom." isn't politely disproving a single thing. It's an unfounded assertion. You'll note that Nightlion also strongly disagrees with the premise. And I have quoted LDS scriptures and prophets in support of my argument and I strongly assert you are NOT acting as moderator, but instead as a biased observer here.

You have quoted statements that are not addressing the issue in this thread, and you are trying to argue from silence on that basis. The premise is not what you or Nightlion think about babies who die before the age of accountability. The premise is what the LDS Church teaches about that. It has been conclusively demonstrated in this thread what the LDS Church teaches, and it is contrary to what you or Nightlion think. The OP is pointing out a plot hole in the LDS Church narrative: if you assume for the sake of argument that what the Church teaches is true, there will be more males than females in the Celestial Kingdom. The OP is not about "Is it true?" but "If it is true, what are the ramifications?" Your idiosyncratic, make-it-up-as-you-go interpretation of Mormonism is not relevant to that issue.

[_Stormy Waters]

The statements that everyone must be tried and tested and the doctrine that every child who dies under the age of accountability is saved in the CK can be reconciled by asserting that the children were tried and tested in the pre-existence. This would not; however, answer the problem in the OP.
It's simply amazing how consistently defenders of the church are willing to disregard and ignore clear statements made by "prophets, seers, and revelators" when the apologetic need arises.

[_Tobin]

Liz, what on earth are you talking about? Simply making the assertion above "Let me point out one thing: your personal ideas about religion are 100% irrelevant to this thread. The OP is discussing the ramifications of LDS doctrine (not Tobin doctrine) in light of real-world infant mortality estimates and the LDS teaching that ALL children who die before the age of accountability are guaranteed to go to the Celestial Kingdom." isn't politely disproving a single thing. It's an unfounded assertion. You'll note that Nightlion also strongly disagrees with the premise. And I have quoted LDS scriptures and prophets in support of my argument and I strongly assert you are NOT acting as moderator, but instead as a biased observer here.

Unlike Nightlion, your arguments and your references have been repeatedly refuted. You have failed to produce additional evidence from doctrinal settings supporting your claim.

I have not split anything yet. I also asked for further clarification of what is being argued here in my "poster mode". If you think that I make an unfair call, please refer it to Shades. Since I am a participant on this thread, I will abducate to one of the other moderators to actually make any splits on this thread.

The premise is that Mormons teach that the unaccountable (fetuses, children before they are eight, the mentally handicapped, and so on) are automatically resurrected, exalted, and go on to their reward in the CK. As a result (since more unaccountable boys die than girls), men will have to share their wives with other men. I state that because the premise is completely false, the result is not implied at all.

It has been pointed out that unborn children return to the CK. I don't disagree. Of course they do That isn't relevant because that isn't talking about their resurrection, exaltation and subsequent return to the CK. After all, we all came from the CK originally too.

I've also seen an arugment that children will be raised and not tempted by Satan. That isn't relevant to what I'm saying either. They will be raised during the Millenium and Satan will be bound. And we aren't tested and tried by Satan anyway. We are tested and tried by the Lord, as Abraham was, before we are exalted and return to the CK.

[_Darth J]

I've also seen an arugment that children will be raised and not tempted by Satan. That isn't relevant to what I'm saying either. They will be raised during the Millenium and Satan will be bound. And we aren't tested and tried by Satan anyway. We are tested and tried by the Lord, as Abraham was, before we are exalted and return to the CK.

Nope.

Bruce R. McConkie, April 1977 General Conference

Will children ever be tested?

Absolutely not! Any idea that they will be tested in paradise or during the millennium or after the millennium is pure fantasy. Why would a resurrected being, who has already come forth from the grave with a celestial body and whose salvation is guaranteed, be tested? Would the Lord test someone who cannot fail the test and whose exaltation is guaranteed? For that matter, all those billions of people who will be born during the millennium, when Satan is bound, “shall grow up without sin unto salvation” (D&C 45:58) and therefore will not be tested. “Satan cannot tempt little children in this life, nor in the spirit world, nor after their resurrection. Little children who die before reaching the years of accountability will not be tempted.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:56–57.) Such is the emphatic language of President Joseph Fielding Smith.