Steven Covey Lifts up His Eyes in Hell

[_Kishkumen]

My final post on this topic. I am not interested in pursuing this further because I did not ask for an argument with you, and I think you misjudged my response to Nightlion. If anything, I would have preferred that you had left me out of it. My interactions with Nightlion are really none of your business, and I don't appreciate your facile moralizing about it.

1. I consider myself to be Nightlion's friend. We know each other in real life. He understands where I am coming from, and you don't really understand or appreciate how we communicate with each other because you are not privy to any of our off-board communications.

2. I don't consider antagonizing Nightlion to be an effective way of interacting with him. In fact, I have yet to see an occasion when your way of dealing with him worked with a prophet. If anything, you are reinforcing one of the classic cultural scripts in prophet interactions. Prophets expect to receive the kind of treatment you dealt him.

3. So, regardless of your belief that you had some moral obligation to take him to task for consigning a person you believe no longer exists to a place you don't believe exists, I am left wondering why you consider the feelings of those who might have read the thread worth antagonizing Nightlion and actually reinforcing his belief in his calling thereby.

But, I would be lying if I were to say I really care about the answer to that, because I didn't want this entire conversation in the first place. It was you who decided to pick a fight with both Nightlion and me. I simply don't care to be wrongly accused.

[_Tobin]

I strongly disagree with Nightlion's position that Covey is going to hell. If you find yourself in hell, that is entirely up to you. Hell is a state of mind. You can experience hell in this life too because of how you choose to act and think and when you choose to inflict suffering upon yourself and others.

I personally don't believe in a hell as a place. Mormonism doesn't have the concept of the next world of such a place. It is made up of spirit prison and paradise. The reason for spirit prison is to separate those who victimized others and make them impotent so they no longer can do so, while all others are at peace and prepare to be judged and return to God. After that, we will all attain a degree of glory based on our willingness to do as the Lord asks. The only ones with no glory will be those who will not accept God in any form and stand in open rebellion against that God they know exists as Satan does now.

I too, like Kishkumen, like some of the things Covey had to say and ring true. Those should be endorsed and made part of your life. I also agree that there are things that he said that were silly and activities that were pointless and misleading. And I agree there are many Covey-ites that are Mormon and act in ways that bug me a lot. They are highly strung and stress me out. I tend to like people that are easy going, approachable, and not so structured that they can't deal flexibly with life's challenges.

[_Nightlion]

I strongly disagree with Nightlion's position that Covey is going to hell. If you find yourself in hell, that is entirely up to you. Hell is a state of mind. You can experience hell in this life too because of how you choose to act and think and when you choose to inflict suffering upon yourself and others.

I personally don't believe in a hell as a place. Mormonism doesn't have the concept of the next world of such a place. It is made up of spirit prison and paradise. The reason for spirit prison is to separate those who victimized others and make them impotent so they no longer can do so, while all others are at peace and prepare to be judged and return to God. After that, we will all attain a degree of glory based on our willingness to do as the Lord asks. The only ones with no glory will be those who will not accept God in any form and stand in open rebellion against that God they know exists as Satan does now.

I too, like Kishkumen, like some of the things Covey had to say and ring true. Those should be endorsed and made part of your life. I also agree that there are things that he said that were silly and activities that were pointless and misleading. And I agree there are many Covey-ites that are Mormon and act in ways that bug me a lot. They are highly strung and stress me out. I tend to like people that are easy going, approachable, and not so structured that they can't deal flexibly with life's challenges.

Those who await judgment in the next life have neither lot nor part with Christ in his kingdom. If you did not have the faith and drawn unto it of God fortune to call down upon your soul a day of judgment while you are alive upon this earth then it is everlastingly too late. This is the time to prepare to meet God. Waiting to see if you get a pass in the next world is moot. What you get will be something less in various degrees of course, of course.

See how important it is that you have faithful leaders who know the least thing about the reality of eternal life? See why men like Covey who sell a Mcgospel for popularity and praise and the glory of this world will rue the day of their judgment which they unwittingly put off and taught others to do the same abusing the innocent monstrously by selling all the notion they can arrogantly assumed for the best, even excellent results?

How I wish someone knew enough to fully agree with me. How long oh Lord!

[_Kishkumen]

Out of curiosity, Nightlion, have you read Covey's The Spiritual Roots of Human Relations?

[_Tobin]

How I wish someone knew enough to fully agree with me. How long oh Lord!

If I find someone that fully agrees with me on everything, then I'm doing something wrong. I like people who disagree with me on reasonable grounds. I value what they have to say and lets me examine my own positions.

Anyway Nightlion, Covey probably wasn't as bad as you seem to think he is or was. He had useful things to say. I'm happy to accept those. And like all of us, he said and did dumb things as well. I can look past that as being part of our human, fallible nature.

[_Kishkumen]

And I agree there are many Covey-ites that are Mormon and act in ways that bug me a lot. They are highly strung and stress me out. I tend to like people that are easy going, approachable, and not so structured that they can't deal flexibly with life's challenges.

Hey, Tobin-

I think this is at the root of my negative reaction to Covey. It is not so much the man himself as the whole corporate Mormon fashion, including planners, corporate wear, always greater, always more. On my mission I was leery of selling Mormonism and pushing for higher stats. Don't get me wrong, I loved preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ on my mission. I loved the people I served, but I hated reducing my work to cheap gimmicks and numbers. I have a tendency to lump Covey in with those bad memories.

[_Cylon]

Kish, I'm really curious now, what, in your opinion, is the most effective way to engage a prophet?

[_Nightlion]

Out of curiosity, Nightlion, have you read Covey's The Spiritual Roots of Human Relations?

That was a long time ago. I am thinking I must have. But it probably irritated me even back then. So I must have put it out of mind. I ought to leaf through it again just to see. Ya know.

[_Nightlion]

How I wish someone knew enough to fully agree with me. How long oh Lord!

If I find someone that fully agrees with me on everything, then I'm doing something wrong. I like people who disagree with me on reasonable grounds. I value what they have to say and lets me examine my own positions.

Anyway Nightlion, Covey probably wasn't as bad as you seem to think he is or was. He had useful things to say. I'm happy to accept those. And like all of us, he said and did dumb things as well. I can look past that as being part of our human, fallible nature.

So the whole spiritual molestation thing is no big deal with you? Do you figure that there is no innocence to offend or that those guy at the top are not responsible, or there is no reality to the next world so nothin'?

[_Nightlion]

I think this is at the root of my negative reaction to Covey. It is not so much the man himself as the whole corporate Mormon fashion, including planners, corporate wear, always greater, always more. On my mission I was leery of selling Mormonism and pushing for higher stats. Don't get me wrong, I loved preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ on my mission. I loved the people I served, but I hated reducing my work to cheap gimmicks and numbers. I have a tendency to lump Covey in with those bad memories.

I was the same on my mission. A new Mission President came for my last four months and at Zone Conference he gave a rah, rah, spot and I got to speak afterward because I was a ZL. I completely leveled everything he said telling the guys to convert people to Christ first and last. That president did not so much as speak a word to me when I left my mission. I wonder how many LDS leaders actually think every subordinate owes them allegiance first and last even ahead of Christ? Curious mind set.