?'s for Kishkumen

[_Kishkumen]

And Blixa and MsJack would run a newly empowered branch of the priesthood.

They are the bishops. We have two. Because that is awesome.

[_Nightlion]

“The great Seer immediately replied: ‘Brother Behunnin, you don’t know what you would do. No doubt these men once thought as you do. Before you joined this Church you stood on neutral ground. When the gospel was preached good and evil were set before you. You could choose either or neither. There were two opposite masters inviting you to serve them. When you joined this Church you enlisted to serve God. When you did that you left the neutral ground, and you never can get back on to it. Should you forsake the Master you enlisted to serve it will be by the instigation of the evil one, and you will follow his dictation and be his servant.’

“He emphasized the fact that a man or woman who had not taken sides either with Christ or belial could maintain a neutral position, but when they enlisted under either the one or the other they left the neutral ground forever” Book of Mormon Student Manual Source: (Daniel Tyler, in “Recollections of the Prophet Joseph Smith,” Juvenile Instructor, 15Aug. 1892, p.492).

30 And thus we can plainly discern, that after a people have been once enlightened by the Spirit of God, and have had great knowledge of things pertaining to righteousness, and then have fallen away into sin and transgression, they become more hardened, and thus their state becomes worse than though they had never known these things.

Joseph Smith is not speaking to the casual Mormonism of today. He is speaking to those who are visited of God and made partakers of the gift and power of the Holy Ghost who then betray that. Not that they all fall into perdition but some do. The LDS McGospel today never approaches that level of accountability and even though an unjust bigotry continues in the hearts of the members against those who leave, it is not as black and white leaving a milquetoast gospel.

In fact as ironic as is seems leaving the LDS Church is a spiritual step up and away from the cardinal condemnation and damnation wreaked upon the innocent by incompetent administrations. By discontinuing partaking of the sacrament unworthily and temple defiling, being unclean, it counts for a repentance and the angels rejoice. Sort of.

[_zeezrom]

And to be clear, I mean that I want to stop looking at the church like a Sith: in absolutes or black & white.

First of all, zeezrom, the Sith never purported to think in absolutes. That was a Jedi mischaracterization of their code.

Second, it was notably ironic for Obi-wan Kenobi to say, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

I suggest that you consider what the Sith really believe, as it pertains to the rest of your post:

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

And I will further thank you to stop misrepresenting our beliefs! Good day to you, sir!

LOL. I just noticed this. I hope to refrain from misrepresenting the Sith in the future.

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[_mercyngrace]

I couldn't agree more about the Check-the-box style model which the LDS Church currently holds. I'm not sure what "true conversion" really means though, especially since the whole experience seems to be scripted and conditioned.

I don't think it's scripted and conditioned. I think we've confused the symbol for the symbolized. We often talk and behave in the church as if our righteous works brought about a change of heart when it's really the unmerited love and acceptance of God that causes us to have only a desire to do good continually. Righteous works can be good preparation for a conversion. Of course, the same works done with improper motivation can be counted as evil. Consider the offering of prayer from the Rameumptom.

I understand the cause for your hope, and I've experienced it too for change within the LDS Church. I don't think it comes from within the Church though and I don't think it ever has. It always seems to come from external pressure and from the top down. I guess that is why I'm pessimistic about the ability for individual members being able to make the change they desire, although I would love to be proven wrong on that. I also think that they at least help those who suffer the most within it so by staying they can make a difference.

Clearly, some change has been by external pressure. Having felt the influence of individuals for both good and ill in the church, I am disinclined to negate the impact of the one. As an example, I received a call from a family member, TBM (without any negative connotations), who had recently discovered Mormon Stories (likely I mentioned it to him) and had listened to the last couple of hours of the Benji Schwimmer interview. He told me that he felt he felt the truthfulness of something Benji shared and as a result his views were softened. One voice made a difference in his life.

In regard to the temple, I want to read through and ponder what you are saying a little more before I respond. The short answer, is that Joseph Smith equated salvation and exaltation. The D&C does the same. Bruce R. McConkie did the same (though he noted that there were three places in the scriptures where the words could have different meanings). The fact that we have grown further and further from this idea and from Joseph's trend toward universalism is further evidence that we opted for a lesser law and that we prefer golden calves.

It's interesting that once the calf was melted down, the Isarelites were forced to drink it. They had to partake of the god they chose. It is my opinion that we also have chosen a lower law and that everything from our rituals to standardized instruction is designed to feed us a steady diet of lesser things. I hold out hope that this work in progress has not stalled but plods steadily through the wilderness in search of a better country.

I'll be back. I have an 11 year old sixth grader who is taunting me about the fact that he's now taller than his mother. My pride compels me to respond....

Later HDE!
Much love,
Cate

[_consiglieri]

Did I forget to say that in my dream ward mercyngrace and consiglieri would be the permanent Sunday School teachers, trading off Sundays?

That would be totally awesome!

I am flattered you would give me equal time with M&G.

When I substituted yesterday in GD class, the former bishop who blacklisted me was in the audience. He said nary a word and made no comments.

But I couldn't resist beginning with these words:

"I feel I should open this class like a temple session by saying if any of you want to leave, now's your chance."

True story.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri