Robert F. Smith writes online book

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_hans castorp
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Re: Robert F. Smith writes online book

Post by _hans castorp »

lulu wrote:
hans castorp wrote:So, who doesn't "organize a hodgepodge"?

hc

lulu wrote:That's what we all do. A scientist will then attempt to empirically verify her "organized hodgepodge" (sometimes known as a hypothosis) against empirical reality.

Many poets and theologians omit the last step.

Not that I have anything against poets and theologian as a group.


hans castorp wrote:So you are contrasting the poet/theologian to the scientist?

No, that was your contrast, I merely followed up on it. And you omit the word "many" from your attempt to quote me.

So please don't misquote me or attribute your initial contrast to me

Thanks in advance.


I'm sorry. I didn't mean to misrepresent you. In fact, your "many" was the root of my question: to paraphrase, how do poets/theologians take that last step?

hc
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_CaliforniaKid
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Re: Robert F. Smith writes online book

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

hans castorp wrote:But it's not necessary for any Catholic to become a devotee. To say it is binding on its devotees is tautologous.

It's not tautological to say that there are people (i.e. devotees) who treat it as binding, or that the revelation presents itself as binding, which is what I'm saying. The issue of the institutional Church's stance on it is irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is that there are plenty of Catholic and Protestant Christians who believe in continuing revelations and regard them as binding for themselves, for the Church, and/or for the world.
_hans castorp
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Re: Robert F. Smith writes online book

Post by _hans castorp »

CaliforniaKid wrote:
hans castorp wrote:But it's not necessary for any Catholic to become a devotee. To say it is binding on its devotees is tautologous.

It's not tautological to say that there are people (i.e. devotees) who treat it as binding, or that the revelation presents itself as binding, which is what I'm saying. The issue of the institutional Church's stance on it is irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is that there are plenty of Catholic and Protestant Christians who believe in continuing revelations and regard them as binding for themselves, for the Church, and/or for the world.


The tautology lies in the fact that by definition someone who is bound to a religious practice is a devotee.

I'm not denying that there are Catholics and Protestants who believe in continuing revelation; indeed, that is what charismatic/Pentecostal prophecy is. I could quibble about the degree to which a devotee of Fatima, say, would feel bound by, e.g., the First Saturdays. Not even the most zealous, I would think, would put it on the level of the Easter duty; it's not a matter of salvation. Nobody I've ever heard has said that omitting the First Saturdays would damn one, though they'd say that one would escape a lot of purgatory time by doing so.

Of course, there are a number of unapproved or condemned apparitions whose devotees believe they are binding on the church, but they also believe in things like audio-animatronic popes and sede-vacantism. But these are vanishingly small groups.

At any rate, I thought I started writing in this thread in support of your point: that there is no impermeable membrane between private and public revelation. I only objected to characterizing the Fatima revelations as binding on the community and original. To restrict the binding to those who have chosen to be bound seems to me to ignore the fact that many, many Catholics have received, indeed honored, the Fatima revelations without feeling that they are bound by them.

hc
Last edited by Guest on Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Blog: The Use of Talking

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_MCB
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Re: Robert F. Smith writes online book

Post by _MCB »

Nobody I've ever heard has said that omitting the First Saturdays would damn one, though they'd say that one would escape a lot of purgatory time by doing so.
Correction-- it is first Fridays. Anyone with that amount of faith is going to do well in the afterlife simply by having the motivation and organization to do it. I have only managed to do two in a row-- maybe someday.
Huckelberry said:
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http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm
_hans castorp
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Re: Robert F. Smith writes online book

Post by _hans castorp »

MCB wrote:
Nobody I've ever heard has said that omitting the First Saturdays would damn one, though they'd say that one would escape a lot of purgatory time by doing so.
Correction-- it is first Fridays. Anyone with that amount of faith is going to do well in the afterlife simply by having the motivation and organization to do it. I have only managed to do two in a row-- maybe someday.


The First Fridays are devoted to the Sacred Heart and were requested in the apparitions of Jesus to St. Margaret Mary; the First Saturday devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary was requested in the apparitions of our Lady of Fatima.

hc
Blog: The Use of Talking

"Found him to be the village explainer. Very useful if you happen to be a village; if not, not." --Gertrude Stein
_madeleine
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Re: Robert F. Smith writes online book

Post by _madeleine »

hans castorp wrote:

The issue here, which I don't think is contradicted by anything you've said above, is that the public/private dichotomy is a bit slippery. Do you really think there would be a Divine Mercy Sunday without the revelations of St. Faustina?

Dogma--a proposition to be believed with divine and Catholic faith--is another matter. Nothing not already present in the tradition may be so defined. But the Immaculate Conception as such is not explicit in much of the tradition, and its antiquity must be deduced from patristic references to Mary as the second Eve, and so forth. Other dogmas have emerged from a dialectical process. As Newman points out, it would be very hard to show that many of the Ante-Nicene fathers held the Nicene faith. You point out, quite rightly, that thesensus fidelium plays an important part here.

The question of the status of private revelation is acute for me in the case of the apparition of La Salette. The visionaries talk of our Lady restraining her Son from punishing the world and complaining that her arms grow tired. The motif of Jesus=Justice, Mary=Mercy, which I'm sure has a longer pedigree, has set a template for many other Marian apparitions, with the notable exception of Lourdes. To me it seems seriously at odds with the gospel. I am grateful that I'm not required to believe in it.

But this is supposed to be Mormon, not Catholic, Discussions.

hc


Thanks for this post. Fatima is appealing to me because of the miracles witnessed there. The devotion to the Immaculate Heart existed long before Fatima. I agree with your point regarding Divine Mercy Sunday. As a person who is not a Divine Mercy devotee, Divine Mercy Sunday is to me like other days that have specific solemnities. Important to our faith for what they witness within and about the faith, but I'm not required to have a devotion to Divine Mercy any more than I am St. Polycarp, who we celebrate specifically on Feb. 23 (just as an example). His martyrdom is just as much a witness to our faith as St. Faustina's mystical visions. St. Faustina being a St. precisely because of the gifts given to her by God. It isn't abnormal in a Catholic frame to have specific feasts and solemnities for specific reasons.

I don't have a problem with classifying any of them a charismatic, including the Martyrs.

La Salette is one I have never heard of, but looking it up, it has never been approved.
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
_hans castorp
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Re: Robert F. Smith writes online book

Post by _hans castorp »

madeleine wrote:
Thanks for this post. Fatima is appealing to me because of the miracles witnessed there. The devotion to the Immaculate Heart existed long before Fatima. I agree with your point regarding Divine Mercy Sunday. As a person who is not a Divine Mercy devotee, Divine Mercy Sunday is to me like other days that have specific solemnities. Important to our faith for what they witness within and about the faith, but I'm not required to have a devotion to Divine Mercy any more than I am St. Polycarp, who we celebrate specifically on Feb. 23 (just as an example). His martyrdom is just as much a witness to our faith as St. Faustina's mystical visions. St. Faustina being a St. precisely because of the gifts given to her by God. It isn't abnormal in a Catholic frame to have specific feasts and solemnities for specific reasons.

I don't have a problem with classifying any of them a charismatic, including the Martyrs.

La Salette is one I have never heard of, but looking it up, it has never been approved.


Not only has La Salette been approved, it has a feast day (September 19).

hc
Blog: The Use of Talking

"Found him to be the village explainer. Very useful if you happen to be a village; if not, not." --Gertrude Stein
_MCB
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Re: Robert F. Smith writes online book

Post by _MCB »

First Saturday devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary was requested in the apparitions of our Lady of Fatima.


You are right


http://www.theworkofgod.org/Devotns/1stsatrd.htm

First Fridays are much older.
http://www.aquinasandmore.com/catholic- ... rticle/186

Catholicism is top-down and bottom-up!!
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm
_madeleine
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Re: Robert F. Smith writes online book

Post by _madeleine »

hans castorp wrote:
La Salette is one I have never heard of, but looking it up, it has never been approved.


Not only has La Salette been approved, it has a feast day (September 19).

hc[/quote]

Goes to your point belief isn't required. :)
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
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